Watch Florida Man Murder His Neighbors Because They Were Mean To Him (VIDEO)

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by gator996, Sep 9, 2013.

  1. Lawdog88
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    Lawdog88 Well-Known Member

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    There's your answer.

    SYG is not open season on non-exigent, non-imminent threats. The use of deadly force only applies if a forcible felony is imminent (or being committed) upon oneself or another person, or where the defender is presented with circumstances requiring him to defend against imminent death or great bodily harm as to himself, or as to another.

    I mean, that's it. SYG is not a free-ranging human hunting statute.
  2. gator996
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    gator996 New Member

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    First of all your wrong about how they came to these conclusions because they did look into the details of the cases.

    Second, given that no one else has even done this level of research this is the "best' we have. if you have something more complete or exhaustive then present it or here it is as "requested" ....the "research".

    Third, I highlighted the last couple of bullet points since those were issues that you raised.

    • People often go free under "stand your ground" in cases that seem to make a mockery of what lawmakers intended.
    • Your case can swing on different interpretations of the law by prosecutors, judge or jury.
    • And no one keeps track of how many "stand your ground" motions have been filed or their outcomes

    This is from people who spent the time to dig into what exists about these cases...
    They are the results of a poorly written law...its vague, its being abused, no monitoring is required to analyze its effectiveness...

    Why does the NRA fight capturing statistics about these controversial gun laws?
    Afraid of the truth?

    These are the conclusions of those who have spent time & have the resources to look into these cases.

    What do you have to support anything about what you believe regarding SYG or the research presented?
  3. surfn1080
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    surfn1080 Well-Known Member

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    Can you provide a case where someone actually got off with SYG that was as obviously not a self-defense like the one you posted?

    996 where do you come up with this crap? Show us a direct correlation that more crimes like this are happening because Florida citizens know they can possible use SYG??
  4. Tasselhoff
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    Tasselhoff Well-Known Member

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    Ummm that as of yet not one single case has been presented. That so far all we have is conjecture and spin. Why do I need to defend it it when there is zero cases against it. The o ly thing you have is biased people saying it COULD be abused...it MIGHT let bad guys off.

    As to your bullet points
    1. Seemsto make a mockery...to what was intended.... Does it or not. Give the specifics of the case this happened in. Is this someone's OPINION? Again..no details coming from you.
    2. Outcome can swing depending on everyone's I'm terpretation of the law.....This is true of every statue every law. Seriously this is dumb.
    3. No one knows how many syg motions have been filed or their outcome?...but your willing to say it is abad law why? Since we do not know just assume since it goes against your personal belief it must be bad?

    Agai show us a case. Show us evidence not some opinion piece that offer szip in the way of details.You claim it is a bad law...prove it.
  5. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    Crazy people do crazy things and use crazy justifications. Nothing to see here, other than the deep irony in the OP.
  6. gator996
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    gator996 New Member

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    Did you miss this?


    http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/

    There are PLENTY of questionable cases documented.
    The journalists at the Tampa Bay Times drew the conclusions about correlation.

    Before you call something crap maybe you should read the thread and look at what's been linked already.

    All of your "questions" are answered in the Time's website.

    Have an issue with the research?
    take it up with them.



    On another note here's a wonderful bit of research about those who invoke SYG
    Well written law?


    http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/many-killers-who-go-free-with-florida-stand-your-ground-law-have-history/1241378

    Many killers who go free with Florida 'stand your ground' law have history of violence

    By Kameel Stanley and Connie Humburg, Times Staff Writers
    Saturday, July 21, 2012 4:30am



    A Tampa Bay Times analysis of stand your ground cases found that it has been people like Moorer — those with records of crime and violence — who have benefited most from the controversial legislation. A review of arrest records for those involved in more than 100 fatal stand your ground cases shows:

    • Nearly 60 percent of those who claimed self-defense had been arrested at least once before the day they killed someone.

    • More than 30 of those defendants, about one in three, had been accused of violent crimes, including assault, battery or robbery. Dozens had drug offenses on their records.

    • Killers have invoked stand your ground even after repeated run-ins with the law. Forty percent had three arrests or more. Dozens had at least four arrests.

    • More than a third of the defendants had previously been in trouble for threatening someone with a gun or illegally carrying a weapon.

    • In dozens of cases, both the defendant and the victim had criminal records, sometimes related to long-running feuds or criminal enterprises. Of the victims that could be identified in state records, 64 percent had at least one arrest. Several had 20 or more arrests.
  7. Tasselhoff
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    Tasselhoff Well-Known Member

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    I know this is hard to grasp so I will try one more time...

    YOU presented this board with this asinine idea that SYG was letting murders go free when they were really guilty. I asked for proof. You gave me an article written by journalist who you yourself admit ...drew conclusions...not hard evidence not hard facts...

    You yourself have argued that there is no way to tell because no one keeps records of how often SYG is used nor the outcome...then how can you know it is a bad law?

    And one more time...just because a person has a criminal background...even a violent one does not mean they do not have the right to defend themselves with force. All of these examples up there...did any of them not have aright to defend themselves?

    They reviewed 100 hundred out of how many cases...since no one keeps record of how often it is invoked?

    Out of those 100 how many really did need to defend themselves from someone else...not what their crime history is, but needed to defend themselves legally?

    What you are doing, and what the TBT did is basically profiling who MIGHT abuse the law based on their pass history. What would happen if we did that to all criminals. Maybe anytime someone comes into a store who has a pass record of theft we can arrest them assuming they stole.

    Again one simple case with evidence and proof of someone who was clearly guilty and yet was able to walk away due to this law.
  8. Tasselhoff
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    Tasselhoff Well-Known Member

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    Did you read the article you posted? It even says EXACTLY WHAT IA M POINTING OUT! That there is no PROOF!
  9. gator996
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    gator996 New Member

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    THIS! (besides the numerous stories you avoided on the Tampa Times website)
    Thanks to Gatornana, she posted this on another thread today.

    http://blogs.orlandoweekly.com/index.php/2012/03/not-the-first-time-a-black-teen-shot-to-death-in-sanford

    Not the first time a black teen shot to death in Sanford


    March 20, 2012
    By Erin Sullivan


    In all the outcry over the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teenager who was killed in Sanford last month by neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman, it’s worth noting that this isn’t the first time an unarmed black teen was shot by armed men who overreacted – and weren’t immediately arrested for their actions.

    July 16, 2005, 16-year-old Travares McGill was in a parked car with a group of friends in the parking lot of an apartment complex. According to news reports, police reports and court records, two security guards – William Patrick Swofford and Bryan Ansley – shined a light into the car Travares and his friends were in, and the kids panicked. McGill, who was driving, backed up and then tried to speed away. The security guards were doing a routine patrol of the area but they never identified themselves to the teens. As McGill tried to drive away, he was shot in the back. The guards said they opened fire because they thought they were in imminent danger – that McGill was at first driving toward them. Even though the car veered away from them, Swofford kept firing even after it was no longer headed in the guards’ direction.

    At first, no charges were filed against Swofford or Ansley by Sanford police. Turns out, Swofford was a volunteer with the Sanford police department and Ansley was the son of a former Sanford police officer. Ansley and Swofford were finally charged in November of that year – Swofford with manslaughter and both Swofford and Ansley with shooting into an occupied vehicle. The case went to trial, but it was eventually dismissed by a judge who determined that it was a case of self-defense.

    Ansley, by the way, was arrested two more times after the shooting of McGill. In 2008 he was arrested for overstepping his boundaries and acting like a security guard even though his license was revoked; he said he didn’t know his license was no longer good. He was arrested again in 2010 for impersonating a police officer.

    The circumstances between the Martin case and the McGill case differ, but the resemblances and parallels are disturbingly obvious.
  10. Tasselhoff
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    Tasselhoff Well-Known Member

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    996 was syg used in the above mentioned case?

    Is it possible this article points out NOT the problem with SYG but the SPD?

    No one, as far as I can tell, is arguing the virtue of the Stanford Police Department.

    Please...again....ONE EXAMPLE.
  11. Tasselhoff
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    Tasselhoff Well-Known Member

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    Oh... and I read the tampatimesarticle...it agrees with me.
  12. gator996
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    gator996 New Member

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    If you don't want to look at the news stories on the Tampa Times website then I can't make you look at it.

    If you won't look at the self-defense claim that exonerated a guy in a ridiculous situation for self-defense to be claimed then I can't help you.

    That's what you asked for...I gave it to you.


    Here's another example of what this well-written law is now causing on the streets of Florida & in its courtrooms.


    From the tampa Times website...

    Sometimes, the 'stand your ground' defense cuts both ways


    CLEARWATER — Richard Kelly says he thought he was doing the right thing Aug. 3 when he called 911 about a neighbor on Macomber Avenue in Clearwater.

    "He's drunk, kind of belligerent, walking around with a gun in his pocket,'' Kelly said. "He basically just threatened the whole neighborhood. He's gonna shoot the whole neighborhood.''

    A deputy responding to the call discovered Don Steven Madak with watery eyes, slurred speech and "under the influence of something." He patted Madak down, found no weapon and told him to sleep it off.

    Barely an hour later, another call came in from Macomber Avenue.

    "My brother Ricky got shot!'' a woman screamed.

    Madak, who is white, had shot it out with Kelly, who is black. Paramedics found Madak with a bullet wound to the thigh, Kelly bleeding from ankle and hand.

    Both men were arrested and spent weeks in jail. Both eventually walked free, spared in part by the prospect of a "stand your ground'' defense that would have made prosecution difficult.

    "It's certainly unusual to have two individual neighbors shooting and both being shot and testimony coming out favorable to each for self-defense,'' said Kendall Davidson, an assistant Pinellas-Pasco state attorney. "We took a long time to investigate because it was a strange facts scenario.''

    Though unusual, the Macomber Avenue shootout was not unique, according to a Tampa Bay Times analysis of nearly 200 cases in which people could claim self-defense under Florida's "stand your ground'' law. The Times found other cases in which more than one participant raised the defense.

    Madak, who had a concealed weapons permit, didn't want to talk about that August night.

    But he did say, "I feel very strongly that I'm the person who got attacked and everything made it look like I was an aggressor.''

    Kelly, too, remains angry. In light of the Trayvon Martin case, in which police released a Hispanic man who killed a black teen, Kelly wonders if deputies initially went easy on Madak because he is white and Kelly is black.

    "If the police had heard me out correctly when I first called,'' Kelly said, "nothing would have happened."

    Tensions developed over time among neighbors

    Macomber Avenue, a few miles from downtown Clearwater, is a one-block, racially mixed street.

    Several months before the shootout, Madak, his wife, Kimberly, and their daughter, 11, had moved from Safety Harbor to this "somewhat ghetto neighborhood,'' as Kimberly later described it to investigators. Madak was disabled by a back injury and the family had financial problems, she said.

    At home a lot, Madak, 44, became friends with Kelly, who lived across the street. Unlike Madak, who had never been arrested, Kelly had a record that included the sale of counterfeit drugs.

    But Kelly, 25, had stayed out of trouble in recent years. And like Madak, he wanted an end to gang activity on nearby State Street.

    Over time, tensions developed. Kelly and other neighbors thought Madak, who carried a 9mm Luger, was too obsessed with guns. Madak thought Kelly was becoming sympathetic to the gangs and less interested in cleaning up the area.

    On Aug. 3, the two men argued on and off. Madak had three Cokes with Crown Royal at dinner.

    At 9:15 that night, Kelly called 911.

    "He threatened my household,'' Kelly told the dispatcher. "He said he had enough ammo to knock down the house or something like that.''

    Pinellas Sheriff's Deputy Joseph Miner went to check. After advising Madak to go to bed, he watched him go inside and turn off the porch lights.

    But less than an hour later, the men were in the street trading punches. Madak tired quickly and returned to his yard. Kelly's stepfather showed up with a friend and moved toward Madak, yelling at him.

    Madak pulled out his Luger and pointed it at the men. Kelly, in his own yard, fired several shots into the air from a .22-caliber handgun.

    What happened next is in dispute. Madak said Kelly shot him first. Some witnesses said Madak fired the first shot. By his own account, Madak emptied his Luger of all 12 rounds, then ran inside for his shotgun.

    By the time Miner arrived the second time, Madak had collapsed. "I should have listened to you and stayed in the house,'' he told the deputy.

    Whom to prosecute was difficult to determine

    Each man was charged with aggravated battery with a deadly weapon. Madak also faced two counts of aggravated assault.

    Interviews by the Pinellas-Pasco State Attorney's Office showed the difficulty of prosecuting. Miner, who wouldn't comment for this article, "thinks that Madak was the aggressor based on his intoxicated state previous in the evening,'' an interviewer wrote, but acknowledged he didn't know what happened later.

    To the interviewer, Kelly "was polite and respectful and seemed …credible.''

    As for Madak, the interviewer found a man who "obviously cares about his daughter and wife" and thought he had to defend them.

    "At the end of the day I questioned some of the things that (Madak) said, just because it doesn't quite match with what the witnesses have said, but he would make a good witness," the interviewer wrote.

    Public Defender Bob Dillinger agreed, saying Madak could have had a strong "stand your ground" case.

    It never got that far. Kelly and Madak indicated they did not want to press charges against each other and prosecutors concluded both shooters could successfully argue self-defense. In September, charges were dropped and the two men walked out of jail.

    The Madak family quickly moved away from Macomber Avenue.
  13. Tasselhoff
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    Tasselhoff Well-Known Member

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    Can you read? I read the tbt article. I went to the website. There is not a single bit of evidence.

    And oh look..in yet another case you linked SYG WAS NOT USED.

    I am done. Until you post a case where SYG was used to get an obviously guilty person off...you have no argument. I will not respond anymore until you can come up with an actual case.
  14. gator996
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    gator996 New Member

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  15. gator996
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    Similar inconsistencies can be found across the state:

    • During an argument at a 2009 party in Fort Myers, Omar Bonilla fired his gun into the ground and beat Demarro Battle, then went inside and gave the gun to a friend. If Battle feared for his life, he had time to flee. Instead, he got a gun from his car and returned to shoot Bonilla three times, including once in the back. Battle was not charged in the slaying.

    At another party in the same town five months later, Reginald Etienne and Joshua Sands were arguing. Etienne left the party and returned with a knife. During a fistfight between the two men, Etienne fatally stabbed Sands. He was sent to prison for life.

    • In Winter Springs, Owen Eugene Whitlock came home on Christmas Eve 2009 to find his daughter's boyfriend, Jose Ramirez, angrily stalking up his driveway, flexing his muscles and swinging his fists. Whitlock stood his ground and fired a fatal shot. He was not charged.

    In Clearwater, Terry Tyrone Davis shot and killed his cousin as he stalked up the walkway of Davis' home in 2010 with a group of friends. "There's no doubt he was going over there to kick his a--,'' Circuit Judge Philip J. Federico said, "but that does not allow you to kill a guy." Davis is now serving 25 years in prison.

    • In West Palm Beach, Christopher Cote started pounding on the door of neighbor Jose Tapanes at 4 a.m. after an argument over Cote's dog. Tapanes stepped outside and fired his shotgun twice, killing Cote. A jury acquitted him, but prosecutors and a judge had discounted Tapanes' self-defense claim, saying if he was truly afraid for his life, he should not have stepped outside.

    Yet Rhonda Eubanks was not arrested or charged when she opened her front door one evening in 2006 and fatally shot a man who had been causing a ruckus in her Escambia County neighborhood. He had tried to get into her house, then left and tried to take her neighbors' cars. When he returned, Eubanks stood near her doorway and fired as he approached.

    Discrepancies among cases cannot all be explained by small differences in the circumstances. Some are clearly caused by different interpretations of the law.

    When Gerald Terrell Jones shot his marijuana dealer in the face in Brandon this year, he was charged with attempted murder and aggravated assault. A jury later acquitted him. But a judge had rejected Jones' "stand your ground'' motion, in part, because he was committing a crime at the time.

    Elsewhere in the state, drug dealers have successfully invoked "stand your ground" even though they were in the middle of a deal when the shooting started.

    In Daytona Beach, for example, police Chief Mike Chitwood used the "stand your ground" law as the rationale for not filing charges in two drug deals that ended in deaths. He said he was prevented from going forward because the accused shooters had permits to carry concealed weapons and they claimed they were defending themselves at the time.

    "We're seeing a good law that's being abused," Chitwood told a local paper.
  16. gator996
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    gator996 New Member

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    Various interpretations

    Disparities have been driven in part by vague wording in the 2005 law that has left police, prosecutors and judges struggling to interpret it.

    It took five years for the Florida Supreme Court to decide that judges should base immunity decisions on the preponderance of evidence.

    Still unresolved is whether a defendant can get immunity if he illegally has a gun. And courts are divided on what the law is when a victim is retreating.

    David Heckman of Tampa lost his bid for "stand your ground" protection because his victim was walking away when Heckman shot him.

    "We conclude that immunity does not apply because the victim was retreating," the court said.

    But Jimmy Hair, who was sitting in a car when he was attacked in Tallahassee, was treated differently. He shot his victim as the man was being pulled from the vehicle. An appeals court gave immunity to Hair, saying: "The statute makes no exception from immunity when the victim is in retreat at the time the defensive force is employed."

    While many have argued the law does not allow someone to pick a fight and claim immunity, it has been used to do just that. It is broad enough that one judge complained that in a Wild West-type shootout, where everybody is armed, everyone might go free.

    "Each individual on each side of the exchange of gunfire can claim self-defense," Leon County Circuit Judge Terry P. Lewis wrote in 2010, saying it "could conceivably result in all persons who exchanged gunfire on a public street being immune from prosecution."

    Lewis was considering immunity motions stemming from a Tallahassee gang shooting that resulted in the death of one of the participants, a 15-year-old boy.

    The judge said he had no choice but to grant immunity to two men who fired the AK-47 responsible for the death even though they fired 25 to 30 times outside an apartment complex. The reason: It could not be proved they fired first.

    Questionable cases

    Whatever lawmakers' expectations, "stand your ground" arguments have resulted in freedom or reduced sentences for some unlikely defendants.

    • An 18-year-old felon, convicted of cocaine and weapons charges, shot and wounded a neighbor in the stomach, then fled the scene and was involved in another nonfatal shootout two days later, according to police. He was granted immunity in the first shooting.

    • Two men fell into the water while fighting on a dock. When one started climbing out of the water, the other shot him in the back of the head, killing him. He was acquitted after arguing "stand your ground."

    • A Seventh-day Adventist was acting erratically, doing cartwheels through an apartment complex parking lot, pounding on cars and apartment windows and setting off alarms. A tenant who felt threatened by the man's behavior shot and killed him. He was not charged.

    • A Citrus County man in a longstanding dispute with a neighbor shot and killed the man one night in 2009. He was not charged even though a witness and the location of two bullet wounds showed the victim was turning to leave when he was shot.

    Even chasing and killing someone over a drug buy can be considered standing your ground.

    Anthony Gonzalez Jr. was part of a 2010 drug deal that went sour when someone threatened Gonzalez with a gun. Gonzalez chased the man down and killed him during a high-speed gunbattle through Miami streets.

    Before the "stand your ground'' law, Miami-Dade prosecutors would have had a strong murder case because Gonzalez could have retreated instead of chasing the other vehicle. But Gonzalez's lawyer argued he had a right to be in his car, was licensed to carry a gun and thought his life was in danger.

    Soon after the filing of a "stand your ground'' motion, prosecutors agreed to a deal in which Gonzalez pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of manslaughter and got three years in prison.

    "The limitations imposed on us by the 'stand your ground' laws made it impossible for any prosecutor to pursue murder charges,'' Griffith of the Miami-Dade State Attorney's Office said at the time. "This is certainly a very difficult thing to tell a grieving family member.''

    Increase in cases

    If there's one thing on which critics and supporters agree, it is that the "stand your ground'' law is being applied in a growing number of cases, including misdemeanors. That trend is reflected in the Times' database, with a five-fold increase in nonfatal cases from 2008 to 2011.

    Meanwhile, the number of fatalities in which "stand your ground" played a role dropped from a peak of 24 cases in 2009 to half that number in 2011.

    The nearly 200 cases found by the Times include most of the high-profile homicides in which the law is invoked.

    Uncovering minor cases in which defendants argue "stand your ground" is more difficult. When asked by the Times, public defenders in Pinellas, Pasco and Hillsborough counties came up with a total of 60 "stand your ground" motions filed by their offices in recent years.

    In Miami-Dade County, officials tried to count all the "stand your ground" motions filed in the past year. Their best estimate: 50.

    If those counties are any indication, several hundred defendants are now invoking the law annually.

    Its expanded use comes at a cost to the court system.

    In April, a hearing on whether William Siskos should get immunity for killing his girlfriend's husband included the all-day use of a Brooksville courtroom, a judge, a public defender, two prosecutors, clerks and bailiffs and an expert witness who was paid $750 an hour.

    The judge denied the motion and the case is pending.

    "The court system is overburdened enough without having a bunch of expensive, unnecessary, time-consuming hearings on stand your ground,'' said Dekle, the University of Florida professor.
  17. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    I agree that reforms are needed, to prevent duelling in the streets and citizen Fifery. However I would leave aspects of SYG in force, such as the right to protect others under threat or resist violent felonies in public.

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