Walter Williams Nails It

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by QGator2414, Aug 4, 2013.

  1. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    There seems to be a considerable effort here to demean the importance of cause and effect when it comes to individual actions and individual outcomes in life. In other words, to objectify man. Kind of a self fulfilling prophecy isn't it? No, I reject the idea that the poor are powerless to improve their condition, as many tycoons began life poor. What happened there? Is Too Big To Fail the wizard behind the curtain that explains the entire history of free enterprise? Or is it just another excuse used to explain disparity?
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  2. rivergator
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    rivergator Well-Known Member

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    how much race-based affirmative action still exists?
  3. Lawdog88
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    Lawdog88 Well-Known Member

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    Not so fast, Professor.

    Time to man up and post the relevant facts.

    We insist. :ninja:
  4. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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    MichaelJoeWilliamson Well-Known Member

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    Good question. Why don't you tell us?
  5. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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    MichaelJoeWilliamson Well-Known Member

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    When one talks about AA, one has to necessarily get to implementation. What are the current implementation tactics of AA?

    river asked the question. I would be interested in reading what both you and he think about it.

    The reason I ask is that I am under the impression that AA is an amalgamation of implementation tactics for Civil Rights
  6. dynogator
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    dynogator Well-Known Member

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    After a quick look at an AA timeline, the most recent Supreme Court case was in 2003, involving the University of Michigan and acceptance policies, I believe. More research needed. The legislation itself was was enacted decades ago, of course, I don't know what the current "real world," applications are.
  7. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    :laugh: :laugh:

    I think I listed quite a few despite writing that I wouldn't. I was more or less trying to say that I didn't want to go into long explanations given how long that comment was already becoming.

    But since you asked, I expand to briefly mention two more. Serious street crime such as robbery and murder strongly link to place...i.e. crime "hotspots" and those hotspots are concentrated in poor urban neighborhoods. Similarly situated poor, young, white males have a comparable crime rate to poor, young, black males.

    Serious violent and property crime also strongly links to age. Those committing it are far more likely to be less than 30 yrs old and even more likely to be in their late teens/early twenties.

    Most people do not rob or murder but those that do (especially robbery) tend to rob at very high rates.
  8. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    I would say cause and effect does not explain how economies work as a whole or why misfortune befalls some and not others, even if it may provide anecdotal explanations for specific actions & outcomes. I'm not rejecting the idea that the poor are powerless either, just allowing the idea that the mere condition of being poor is inherently riskier than other more-monied situations, which has nothing to do with individual initiative or culture, but rather the simple fact that they have less money comparatively, and that the basic necessities of life cost the same for everyone. I do believe mitigating that risk is important role for the government, but as with all risk-transfer schemes, like insurance, it does allow the possibility for fraud & bad behavior. But it also allows for a potentially more productive allocation of resources, monetary and otherwise.
  9. Lawdog88
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    Lawdog88 Well-Known Member

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    So, since none of the inhabitants of the poverty areas admit to committing the crimes, let me see . . . hummmm . . . yeah, I know, it's OUTSIDERS who are drawn into the ghettos to find easy picking, high-rolling . . . well, er, anyway, out of work, or poverty level inhabitants to take criminal advantage of, i.e., rob and murder !

    Yeah, that's the ticket !
  10. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    :huh:

    I am not sure I follow.
  11. rivergator
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    rivergator Well-Known Member

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    i don't know. that's why i asked. given that you're the one complaining about, it seems like you should have some idea how much of a problem it is.
  12. 92gator
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    92gator Well-Known Member

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    All of the factors which you've mentioned, are cultural bi-products, which is what I believe Walter Wms. was referring to. Where we are today, is a bi-product of cultural shifts which occured 40-50 years ago (not Jim Crow or slavery).

    Addressing the symptoms does nothing, when the culture itself, is rotting. It's like putting a band-aid over a wound infected with gang green. The infected tissue must be removed--often the infected limb amputated. The wound disinfected. Then bandaging applied.

    What I got out of his article, is that the focus must be on thhier culture--not superficial hal-baked fix it attempts.

    e.g.--

    'Zero tolerance' of criminal behavior speaks to the culture (can't do much more from the outside--what, criminalize crime? ;)). Criminal behavior must be viewed from within, as unacceptable. It's not. It's commonly viewed as acceptable, even glorified, in inner city culture--much of which is predominatly black. It's glorified in rap, hip-hop, amongst athletes, in the movies, on down the line. That's a purely cultural trait.

    Real change needs to begin from within--which means changing the culture.

    Not dialogue with outsiders, or seeking [more] assistance from outside the culture.
  13. Lawdog88
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    You quoted elsewhere, that the inhabitants of poverty infested areas do not commit the robbing, mugging, and murdering. At least, they wouldn't admit it.

    So who does ?

    Folks who . . . go there . . . just to commit crime ?

    Come on.
  14. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    You seem to be obliquely advancing the notion that behavior does not lead to outcomes, that the example provided by parents in no way influences the behavior of children or their outcomes, and that the connection between behavior and poverty or wealth is merely coincidental. It is difficult for me to consider this as anything other than an elaborate mental shell game whose purpose is to avoid confronting reality. You seem to be rejecting the possibility of change, the need for personal accountability, and even more fundamentally, the possibility of useful knowledge itself. I'm not sure where that leaves this discussion, other than as an abortion.

    Socrates:

  15. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    I'd say that is a rather creative interpretation of what I wrote. I never rejected any of those ideas, obliquely or otherwise. I'm only suggesting that as a sum, economic forces can't be viewed in simple cause and effect terms, unless you can point to a specific and direct cause of financial panics, poverty or what are essentially ongoing complex interactions involving multiple actors, which may not directly interact with one another. What I reject is the radical interpretation of the "there is no such thing as society" Maggie Thatcher quote.
  16. asuragator
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    Writing to robbery and homicide specifically (but even agg assault and rape), I didn't say "none" do. That's a misread, brotha. I said most do not.

    First off serious violent offending is dwarfed in comparison to non-violent crimes. In other words relative to serious non-violent crime, violent crime is much less. But second and most importantly, research has repeatedly shown that even in the highest crime neighborhoods, only a small percentage of all offenders is responsible for a very large majority of violent crimes, particularly homicides and robberies.
  17. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    Actually economic forces are nothing more than the sum of the cause and effect of individual actions. But that robs these economic forces of the causal primacy you prefer to ascribe to them. Poverty on these terms is a demographic condition that is merely correlated with other demographic conditions, but not caused by them. The fact that a person is born into a poor household does not keep them poor. Not even the vicissitudes of life keep them poor. Their actions keep them poor. Yes, macro conditions matter, but the flux associated with them is like the weather. There isn't much to be done about it except to keep plugging away. If you quit the first time there is trouble, you aren't likely to succeed. Winners never quit, and quitters never win. The net result of relentless effort is bound to be success. Why do some quit and others win? Dogged determination, hope for the future, pride, work ethic -- these are winning qualities of individuals, although they are strongly influenced by parental guidance. Among the poor are numbered the unfortunate, but also the profligate and indolent: those who are kept poor by their acts and omissions. This shouldn't be controversial, rather it ought to be axiomatic.
  18. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    Well, there is something to be done about it. Namely, managing some basic level of risk via social insurance schemes and other security measures.
  19. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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    MichaelJoeWilliamson Well-Known Member

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    SC decisions on quotas and race based admissions are certainly a barometer of the legality of AA implementation. But other than quotas and other race based implementation techniques, do others exist? And are we sure quotas and other race based criteria are NOT being used in other hiring/admission decisions?

    The reason I ask is that I am not sure I how else AA can be implemented? Plus there is a lot of chatter about universities and companies using stealth based quotas and other race based criteria, in light of those SC decisions. Couched in the shroud of “subjective” criteria.
  20. wargunfan
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    Poverty in the Black community was worse in the 1950's than today and yet the rate of out of wedlock births was much lower. Those who preach poverty as a primary cause of the destruction of the Black family are overlooking THE primary cause of the problem. It began with LBJ and his "War on Poverty" programs which, while well intentioned, had the effect of emasculating the Black male's role in family formation. The federal government was very successful in making Black men irrelevant. Some of this phenomenon arose as a result of the forced breakup of Black families during slavery. But the progress made after the Civil War in Black family formation was largely negated by government "assistance" programs of the last fifty years. The result has been broken fatherless "families" with an uneducated, unskilled female at its head. With its usual thoughtless meat axe approach to social problems, the federal government has guaranteed that Black men are relegated to sperm donors.

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