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Walter Williams Nails It

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by QGator2414, Aug 4, 2013.

  1. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    I have two reactions:

    1) you are taking a pretty rosy view of the institution of slavery
    2) an explanation for the behavior of the black underclass is not the same as an excuse -- and you seem to ignore the distinction between the black underclass and blacks generally
  2. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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    MichaelJoeWilliamson Well-Known Member

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    All the platitudes aside, children born out of wedlock to the black community started becoming a serious problem around the time of increases to welfare. Thomas Sowell has written extensively about this phenomenon. It remains a big problem.
  3. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    Those trends started before the passing of the GS programs (to include the CRA). While it is certainly a steeper incline for black females comparatively, what is the evidence that it was welfare and not civil rights or other factors?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  4. QGator2414
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    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    I believe the problem began with SS and jdr's graph gives some credence to that. SS began the shift of turning to family first and instead started the dependence on government for answers. The welfare laws and Medicare was just throwing fuel on the fire.

    I am not sure we can fix the damage FDR began and the race hustlers will continue to divide...
  5. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    That would be more plausible if we didn't have relatively high employment rates. It could contribute somewhat, but people work, even many poor, single black mothers. Providing them help didn't make them stop working or make them single mothers, at least I don't see how that particular pathway between ss and single motherhood.

    If anything, it seems to me that it is much more likely to do with emancipation of African Americans after CRA and of women of all races as a result of them increasingly entering universities and the labor force (which was slightly different then the wave of women who assumed jobs traditionally held by men during WWII). In other words the changing social structure/order.

    And really, if we want to talk about the destruction of "families" we must also talk about the explosion of hard drug use in the 60s to the present, the illicit drug trade it spawned, and the absolutely racially biased ways the war on drugs has made matters much worse for the poor, particularly poor African Americans.
  6. northgagator
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    northgagator Well-Known Member

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    Where did the author of the post paint a rosy picture of slavery?

    As a comparison the African Americans from 1619 (first African slaves arrive in the Virginia colony) to 1964 (Passage of Civil Rights Act) fared way better than the native people of the continential USA.

    They were subjected to slavery, diseases, famine, force migration, slaughters, inter tribal warfare, war with the USA,

    One important cause of Native American depopulation during European contact was epidemic disease. The sixteenth through nineteenth centuries saw many different diseases strike Native American populations with considerable frequency.

    Many of the diseases, such as syphilis, smallpox, measles, mumps, and bubonic plague, were of European origin, and Native Americans exhibited little immunity because they had no previous exposure to those diseases. This caused greater mortality than would have occurred if these diseases been endemic to the Americas.

    Dobyns (1983) and Merrell (1984) report several European-induced epidemics in Florida, the Carolinas, and Virginia between 1519 and 1750, including smallpox, bubonic plague, typhus, mumps, influenza, yellow fever, and measles, although Dobyns' research has been argued methodically unsound by others. Bubonic plague and scarlet fever depopulated the Senecas in the 1630s to such an extent that four village settlements were forced to amalgamate into two. Archaeologists found Seneca ceramics dating to the post-epidemic period that were characterized by rough, uneven craftsmanship, suggesting the epidemics killed a substantial percentage of skilled artisans and thus eliminated some cultural knowledge.

    http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/2007_summer_fall/native-americans-smallpox.html

    Why do at a high level of magnitude pigeon hole people into classes?

    Not to be picking on you but your statement about blacks was pretty broad.
    You are not the only. For some reason a lot of people beleive that all African Americans act alike and think alike. I do agree thata at a certain level many African Americans do share some common ground, howver does that make them alike?

    Even some African Americans expect the member of their race to be all alike. Certain power structures in the USA expect all African Americans to be in lockstep as one when it comes to items such as race, politics, and culture. I know many African Americans and to be honest with you I see a lot of uniqueness and individuality with in all of them.

    Back to topic. The poster is correct that the American Natives did suffer horribly. Many of them though choose to stay trapped. There are not any laws that require them to stay on the reservations. They are free to go at anytime. I know this for a fact because my Cherokee grandfather left the reservation over 120 years ago at the age of 13 and went into the US Navy as a cabin boy (now called stewarts). He spent close to twenty years in the Navy and work his way up to Boatswain's Mate and Gunnery Mate (he trained and supervised a crew on a battery of 14" guns). He later and went on to civilian life and become a very successful man (had his own roofing company) who married a white Irish Catlholic and they raised a family of 12 in old southide district of Jacksonville. None of that would of happend if he stayed on a reservation in Oklahoma in 1890.
  7. QGator2414
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    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    I totally agree those are issues as well. The tax code is another cause...hello child tax credit!

    There are many issues for sure but the breakdown of the family unit would certainly be near the top for largest contributors to the problem.

    The race hustlers want no piece of that conversation...
  8. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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    MichaelJoeWilliamson Well-Known Member

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    Thomas Sowell, among others, have done some work around dependency and the destruction of the two parent house holds. If memory serves, he postulated that black communities were hit particularly hard by the phenomenon. I do not have it at my fingertips, so let me dig some of that research up and post it
  9. vangator1
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    vangator1 Well-Known Member

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    There's a difference between blame and identification.

    It's idiotic to blame Jim Crow laws for today's situation. You can blame victimhood all you want, but it's personal responsibility (the lack of) that's the problem. That is the agenda of liberalism.
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  10. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    I've read and agreed with a number of Sowell's arguments on the issue of race, including the seminal work "Race and Culture." But I think it is just a bit ludicrous to imply that everything was fine until LBJ's "Great Society" pushed it off a cliff. The culture of a group of people is their ethnic heritage, and when that culture is systematically destroyed and replaced with one predicated on the idea that they are inherently inferior, there are bound to be lasting effects that manifest as various social symptoms for a prolonged period of time. Culture doesn't change overnight.
  11. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    Sorry, but the entire idea that 'slavery wasn't that bad' is extremely misguided. Good luck with it.
  12. mocgator
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    mocgator Well-Known Member

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    Two words...

    Welfare Broodmares

    The truth is insensitive...
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  13. Gatorrick22
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    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

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    The truth always seems to be "insensitive". And it's always societies' fault for human/individual-groups' failure.

    .... no personal accountability... in the minds of some Leftists is a consideration unworthy of debate.

    Pouring more money into the problem (poverty) seems to make it worse.

    It's the "rich" people's fault.

    It's always someone elses fault.
  14. 108
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    Some great discussion here, which flys in the face of the article's supposition

    JDR, MOI, thanks for the lesson

    One thing I would like to add is how the disproportionate amount of black males in prison for drug offenses has hurt the black family unit

    Drug use and dealing are highly affected by poverty, but no one can argue that there isnt also institutional discrimination when it comes to our criminal justice system. For profit prisons don't help either.

    Lastly, while I would like to see all races have even percentages in different income groups, poverty will never be eliminated. Capitalism is the best economic system there is, but it inherently creates winners and losers. There is only so much wealth to go around.

    This world can feed and house everyone though.


    http://youtu.be/mM7S0OK3hEI
  15. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    The feedback between GS programs and WoD incarceration is something I have been thinking about -- the effects are truly insidious and amplify the underlying problems and each other. But that is not the same as being the origin of the problems.

    It is very easy for a lot of people to look down their noses at others, when their upbringing imparted them with the tools and attitude that are the prerequisites for success. Not everyone has those advantages, but the remedy cannot happen without the participation and accountability of the individual.
  16. dynogator
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    dynogator Well-Known Member

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    What is it? Finger-pointing is finger-pointing, no matter which direction you point.
  17. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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    MichaelJoeWilliamson Well-Known Member

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    I don't think he asserts that "everything was just fine" before the civil rights movements. He just thinks that a good bit of the "Great Society" made things worse, no only in the population at large, but especially in black communities.

    He does think that many of LBJ's policies did exactly that.....systematically destroyed a good deal of what black culture in the USA had evolved into.

    He certainly has always recognized the necessity for the Civil Rights movements. As an older black man, he has written about his encounters as a youth with a brand of racism that was far worse than anything going on now. But he also recognizes that so many of the remedies of the Civil Rights movement has been counter productive and in many cases, have acutally hurt as much as they have helped.

    BTW, the Civil Rights movement and the Great Society Welfare programs, while perhaps linked in some ways, are two different phenomenon.
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  18. Gatorrick22
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    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

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    And your point is... ?
  19. Row6
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    Row6 New Member

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    The comparison with Jews and Indians misses a salient point: American blacks had their culture smashed and even their domestic scene was invaded and occupied. Bad as the ghetto or reservation is, you don't have a master overlooking family arrangements even to the point of raping the good looking females. Additionally, book learning was actively discouraged by most as potentially insurrectionist. In short, their culture and family life was thoroughly deconstructed and trashed. The same did not occur with either jews or indians, no matter how horrible the other circumstances of their persecution were. In any case it seems distasteful for a bunch of christian white guys to sit around and rate the response of our forefathers victims, and then judge who is worthy.
  20. dynogator
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    dynogator Well-Known Member

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    I'm pointing out to van that his statement "Liberalism blames everyone except themselves," may be true, but it's incomplete. Everyone blames everyone else. You can try and rationalize it by characterizing it as "identifying," but no. :no:

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