Walter Williams Nails It

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by QGator2414, Aug 4, 2013.

  1. QGator2414
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    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    "Disgustingly, black politicians, civil rights leaders, liberals and the president are talking nonsense about "having a conversation about race." That's beyond useless. Tell me how a conversation with white people is going to stop black predators from preying on blacks. How is such a conversation going to eliminate the 75 percent illegitimacy rate? What will such a conversation do about the breakdown of the black family (though "breakdown" is not the correct word, as the family doesn't form in the first place)? Only black people can solve our problems."

    http://www.creators.com/conservative/walter-williams.html

    This problem is colorblind as well. Regardless of race illegitimacy puts kids in a bad situation usually...
  2. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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    MichaelJoeWilliamson Well-Known Member

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    Several years ago, Billy Cosby was widely criticized for expressing similar sentiments.
  3. jimgata
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    The mood of the nation, both black and white is " It's not my fault, someone or something else caused it". Until everyone is willing to take a real look and not a PC solution to a problem, it will never be solved. Walter Williams is a smart man and will tell it like it is.
  4. gatordowneast
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    He will receive zero support from the MSM, black leaders or liberal elites. Which contributes to the problem.
  5. vangator1
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    I love Walter Williams commentary. This is not a racial issue. This is a liberal issue. We call it the Dr Spock syndrome. As long as liberalism exists, we'll have problems.

    Liberalism blames everyone except themselves. Take responsibility. Don't look for a solution by govt. Analyze what is wrong and fix it yourself.
  6. dynogator
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    dynogator Well-Known Member

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    So true. It's just disgusting how they blame the unions, the media, public schools, lawyers, Democrats, government employees, the poor, and scientists for everything.
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Gatorrick22
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    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

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    This is conversation (non-issue, IMHO) akin to murderous countries that continue to kill their citizens without due process, and then having them voted to the UN's human rights counsel.

    Pathetic. AA's on AA's and all their blight, bastardization/murder/rape/violent crime-rate... is the problem here, not white on AA's.
  8. rivergator
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    rivergator Well-Known Member

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    :grin::grin::grin:
  9. asuragator
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    Sorry q, while I appreciate your op, he doesn't nail it. This is a desultory, slipshod article. If I had time, I'd critique it formally with an actuall article of my own.

    Surely WW must know about the work which goes on in many poor inner city African American communities that yes, in fact, actually does preach personal responsibility. I know because I work with a few of these organizations and belong to a bunch of others. Personal responsibility is a great value, but preaching it alone cannot and will not fix these complex problems.

    Actually, both are "preached." Just because PR isn't constantly harped in the media by those who work on behalf of the poor (black or otherwise) doesn't mean it isn't preached. This is one of the most vicious ways for folks on the right to further condemn African Americans. Everyone recognizes that hard work often leads to success. But trying to claim that the lack of PR is the driving cause then must ignore the role of poverty to which many if not all of those in such places were born into.

    So he doesn't want to discuss race or recognize the effects of slavery or Jim Crow yet he's cites stats from the 1800s? Perhaps he can explain why the marriage rate might have been higher. Fact is, it is a matter of single-parenting and poverty. Much better outcomes for those in the middle and upper class...so really economic disadvantage as a primary driver. I'll come back to this.

    There's a lot of devastating nonsense for sure maybe the first being that Williams uses the same quote that he used nearly 20 years ago while providing almost the same response). See here:

    More seriously. The issues are 1) the effects of two parent hh vs. single mom hh (i.e. no adult male role models for the boys) and 2) the effects of economic status.

    Well we know from the research both play a role. Children of two parent hh's tend to have the best outcomes compared to single parent hh (particularly single female households). But what WW doesn't broach is that there are socioeconomic class differences and there are gender differences between children within the same household. So in lower class African American neighborhoods, particularly in the most disdvantaged urban neighborhoods, male children of single mothers tend to have worst outcomes (health, criminal activity etc...) compared to their sisters and thus the worst overall. On the other hand, it's not as if single white female hh in the lower class were all that much better, but they are in better shape. Middle an upper tend to have pretty similar outcomes as two-parent hh, buffered as such by affluence.

    I agree that we don't protest about crime enough. Then again, we don't protest enough about the war on drugs and its devastating effects on the poor, particularly poor the poor black community either and the profiling and criminalization of the poor, writ large. Then again we don't protest enough generally.

    We also don't talk about crime in the right way either and to me it seems, WWW is feeding into the problem. But first things first.

    It's factual that for some crimes such as robbery and homicide, African Americans are severely over-represented. It's also true that some of the highest crime neighborhoods are comprised predominantly of African American, and that this concentration plays a role in shaping how we think about crime. No escaping these facts.

    But they aren't the only relevant facts (and I don't have time to post what I think are all the relevant one), anyway:

    Fact: Even in the highest crime African American neighborhoods, most of residents have never murdered or robbed anyone. This isn't to say a bunch are "crime free" but how many folks can honestly answer that they've never committed a serious offense that they were lucky not to have been caught. But I digress. Put differently, on average less than 10% of people in even the worse inner city neighborhoods are responsible for upwards of 70% of all the serious violent felonies In other other words, active offenders are really active, particularly in places where there is higher rates of gang activity.

    Fact: Robbery and murder rates by African Americans have decreased by nearly 60% nationally since the late 1980s, as have all other serious crimes and violence. This is also true for whites and overall decreases.

    Fact: Serious violent crime such as murder, robbery, and agg assault is strongly correlated to place and socioeconomic status and since many folks reside around other folks of the same race, same-race offender and victim is the norm (i.e. white on white, black on black etc...).

    Fact: Blacks may be over-represented in serious violent crimes, but there is no evidence that the over-representation in aggregate numbers is commensurate with the percentage of actual offenders....IOW, active offenders (who tend to be under 30 yrs old) commit an extraordinary amount of crime relative to their numbers in the population.

    Fact: Whites actually commit a about 60% of all serious violent crimes (murder, rape, robbery, agg assault), 70% of felony property crimes (burglary, larceny, auto theft) and 69% of all crime.

    And let's not get into his complete lack of even addressing the disparities that exist in society's response to crime....something I know you pubs and dems can get behind....i.e. the disastrous "war on drugs" (both with policing and courts/sentencing).

    The problem is, WW does not discuss the causes or complexities here in any way that is necessary to make sense of our crime problem. By leaving the numbers out there dangling without further discussion while ignoring critical facts about crime, he short shrifts his readers. Not saying that crime isn't more of an issue in some places for African Americans, only that we are all well advised to look beyond the headlines and more deeply at the issue.


    WW might have been better off just tweeting the first and last paras and then calling it a day because nothing in between is evidence about why we "shouldn't talk about race" and might just be evidence about why we should. In any case, I have some questions still...

    What is up with saying "'breakdown' is not the correct word, as the family doesn't form in the first place." Is he saying that single mothers and their children are not families? Is he really condemning all single black parents, even those that raise their children well?

    And how does including all the stats about marriage, motherhood, and crime in the body of the article support blacks and whites not talking about race? I don't get it. His conclusion does not follow his premise.

    Does he think just talking about it among blacks will somehow improve things?

    If blacks should be solving their own problems and not talking about it with whites, then how does he propose the fix things?
  10. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    jdr, I agree with a lot that you said and might go farther in some ways, but I think it is important to come to grips with the unintended consequences of government programs we find sympathetic as well as those that we do not not... i.e., either of the domestic "wars" that came out of the Johnson and Nixon administrations.
  11. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    I agree. There are unintended consequences of which I am not opposed to changing how or what we do, say with social welfare for the poor, to improve things. However, I haven't seen any convincing, objective evidence that the problems experienced in the black community over the last 40 or so years is either firstly or even directly a result of great society programs (at least writ large, as there are fraud issues, but that's a bit different) as opposed to the rapidly changing social structure that came out of the social upheaval of the 60s for which we saw an explosion of crime, drug markets, gangs etc...
  12. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    Well sir, you are eminently more qualified than I to dissect it... but I think of the quality of the epoch as more of a unity rather than as parallel, somewhat disjointed social/cultural strands.
  13. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    Don't know about more qualified. You certainly make many, many compelling arguments. In any case, I agree again.

    As you said to me some time ago (about a different topic) "democracy is mess" (or something like that). It is, and I think such issues are prime examples.
  14. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    I appreciate your generosity, but I also envy your analytic training and rigor. I shoot my analysis from the intuitive hip for the most part.

    I have been thinking about your last post a bit, and it seems to me that you are very likely correct about the War on Poverty. It is not accurate to state that the Great Society was the cause of social ills among underclass blacks, I think the roots go much deeper -- yes, back to Jim Crow and beyond that to slavery and its alienating and debilitating effects on black ("black" understood as an artificially general, somewhat historical, and somewhat ethnic construct) culture. But I think both the Great Society and the War on Drugs have both been huge amplifiers of some pretty profound social and cultural malaise, malaise that crossed racial / ethnic lines some time ago. We could do a much better job with both our welfare programs and our antidrug programs, and I think we should.
  15. gatordowneast
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    Perhaps you do not want to see the evidence. It is right in front of you. Perhaps the rapidly changing social structure is a direct result of government policies put in place during the war on poverty. Funny, but blacks who think for themselves, like Cosby, Williams and others say so. Those in lockstep with the left, continue to want to blame other factors. The problems will never be solve pointing the fingers elsewhere.
  16. Wormwood56
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    Wormwood56 Well-Known Member

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    As opposed to business owners, talk radio, private schools, energy companies, the NRA, Bush, the GOP, non-union labor, the rich (which includes everyone over $30,000 per year), ministers and pastors, the so-called Military Industrial Complex, and white males for everything?

    Walter williams, as always, is dead on, but to no avail. He has never been on the plantation, so the Civil Rights Industry shuns him, as they do Larry Elder, Thomas Sowell, Herman Cain, Star Parker, and every other conservative black columnist who speaks contrary to The Party Line.

    Or as Cornel West said (probably by stealing the idea from someone else): "Black is not a skin color. It is a frame of mind."
  17. dynogator
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    dynogator Well-Known Member

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    I'm fully aware that everyone blames others for everything. Some posters are not, however.
  18. Wormwood56
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    If black America is still so saddled by a legacy of slavery that was abolished 150 years ago, and Jim Crow laws that were abolished over 40 years ago, I can only wonder how Jews living in Europe can even cope with existence these days?

    About 400,000 Jews live in Germany and another half million live in Russia. Jews were the victims of actual GENOCIDE by both the Nazis and the Soviets (in different forms of pogroms) far more recently than American chattel slavery. This, of course, is in addition to millenia of being treated as pariahs throughout the world, living under laws that make Jim Crow seem like nirvana by comparison.

    These poor people must shrink back in terror every time they see soldiers marching in the streets, a policeman knocking on their door, or any gathering of people staring at them for any and every reason.

    Yet they don't.

    What is it about the psyche of the black community in America that insists on linking everything back to slavery and discrimination, regardless of time period involved. Do they think they are the ONLY people in america or the world that has been oppressed? As degrading as slavery was, black America never had to endure a Trail of Tears (ethnic cleansing) or face annhilation at the hands of government soldiers. Yet even the Amerindians of today do not harp on the past to the same extent.

    Racism does exist (from both directions), but the overwhelming majority (well over 95%) of white people do not hate the black race, and gladly extend their hands to them. All most of us ask is for us to treat each other as equals, as Americans. When people want SPECIAL rights, rather than equal rights, and insist on a set of double standards ("cracka is OK, N Word is not, black players can say bigoted things but white players cannot, etc"), we will never achieve complete racial harmony in this country.
  19. antny
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    Lol. Good response.

    Embarrassing how selfrighteous some are . How can someone not hear how simple they sound when they spew partisan rhetoric.
  20. asuragator
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    Okay, then show me the evidence that the issues blacks face was because of GS and not because of the changing social structure, such as from the civil rights legislation and the end of Jim Crow?

    The point is if there is systematic evidence that it was the GS programs that have been the root of all evil as you would like us to believe, I haven't seen it. What I see is people claiming it but even WW doesn't actually cite any evidence, just quotes and randomly drawn numbers.

    Poverty rates hit their lowest in the early 1970s and then went up slightly and have remained between about 10 and 15 percent with a most recent uptick beginning in the first part of the 2000s. One would think if it were the GS at the root, that poverty would have exploded afterward, but it didn't. Now you would also think with the welfare reform in the 1990s, which would have "corrected" for the GS, would have lead to a large decrease in poverty. It hasn't. For a time after the unemployment rate dropped pretty dramatically but that probably has more to do with the internet boom than anything else.

    You do realize that welfare and poverty are not just issues in the African American community, correct? That many on welfare or in poverty actually work and that many others are elderly or children and that whites make up the largest component.

    In any case, the legit criticism of GS is that it did not reduce or eliminate poverty. That's fact. But some of the other criticisms such as it has made hoards of black folk lazy or criminal (whether stated explicitly or implicitly) does not have the evidence to support it that I have seen but does have a big ole dose of racism underlying such claims...think Reagan "welfare queen." He certainly wasn't talking about white grandma hazel.

    I don't think you read much of what I wrote, instead you are projecting.

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