Tuition is it fair?

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by sappanama, Jun 26, 2013.

  1. ncbullgator
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    ncbullgator Well-Known Member

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    greedy state employees and their million dollar pensions are one of the main reasons tuition has risen (funded by state taxes which better could be allocated to supporting students).

    :sick:
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2013
  2. gtr2x
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    gtr2x Well-Known Member

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    One of the biggest factors in the rise in student debt has been the rise in private for profit colleges with their high tuitions, easy admissions,questionable lending and virtually worthless degrees.

    Have never understood why a kid would go to one when cheaper public schools are available.
  3. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    I think you would have a hard time saying that public school tuition in general has increased markedly based on greedy employees. Why? Public school tuition just hasn't risen that much (at least not in Florida).

    In fact I think there's a pretty strong argument that tuition at a number of public schools (UF being a prime example) is significantly lower than it should be.

    Student loan debt is certainly up, but I don't think that public schools are one of the primary drivers of it. Private school tuition that isn't subject to political price ceilings has risen much more, and as mentioned above the proliferation of garbage for-profit schools that are taking students who probably shouldn't be going to college to start with, charging them exorbitant rates, and giving them a worthless degree yet still qualify for federal student aid is a big driver.

    Making significant changes to the standards of what education qualifies for federal loans would be a very good first step, because there are a lot of schools that charge as much as DOE will let their students borrow who are recruiting students without a prayer of ever paying back their loan debt with the credentials that school provides.
  4. gatordavisl
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    gatordavisl Well-Known Member

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    You make it sound common place. You got stats to back up those million dollar staff pensions? :no:
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  5. mdgator05
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    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    So salaries and benefits for tenured professors at comparable private schools are much lower?
  6. citygator
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    citygator Premium Member

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    Anyone implying a college education isn't a significantly better investment than starting work 4 years early is dead wrong. There are plenty of billionaires and people you may know that are exceptions but please...
  7. Row6
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    Row6 New Member

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    That is not correct for State U's, which are not money makers but actually cost the state. The fact that there are more applicants may give space to raise tuition without losing applicants, but it is not a cause of the increases.
  8. Row6
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    Row6 New Member

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    I's one thing to be wrong and entirely another to be belligerent about it. Here ya' go:

    "Debra Leigh Scott has written an insightful article about the decline and death of the American university....

    It happened, she says, in five easy steps.


    1. Defund public higher education. Starting in the early 1980s, shifting state priorities forced public universities to increasingly rely on other sources of revenue. For example, in the University of Washington school system, state funding for schools decreased as a percentage of total public education budgets from 82% in 1989 to 51% in 2011.” The change came long before the current economic crisis. State budget debates became platforms to defund subjects that were not offering students the practical skills needed for the job market. These arguments translated into real- and often deep- cuts into the budgets of state university systems.

    2. Deprofessionalize and impoverish the professors (and continue to create a surplus of underemployed and unemployed Ph.D.s). Although college costs are out of control, the money isn’t going to the profesors. There are 1.5 million university professors in the US and , 1 million of whom are adjuncts. One million professors in America are hired on short-term contracts, most often for one semester at a time, with no job security whatsoever. And earning, on average, $20K a year gross, with no benefits or healthcare, no unemployment insurance when they are out of work.

    3. Run the colleges with hierarchical bureaucracy. Coming from business, a managerial/administrative class moved in to take over governance of the university. This new class takes control of much of the university’s functioning, including funding allocation, curriculum design, and course offerings. Hierarchical bureaucracy became the order of the day, with a focus on outputs rather than outcomes, and efficiency rather than value for society. The result was massive cost escalation, several times faster than the cost of living, unaccompanied by noticeable improvements in the quality of education.

    4. Focus the college curriculum on jobs: A flood of corporate money shifted the value and mission of the university from a place where an educated citizenry is seen as a social good, where intellect and reasoning is developed and heightened for the value of the individual and for society, to a place of vocational training, focused on profit. University was no longer attended for the development of your mind. It was where you went so you could get a “good job”. Unfortunately, many of the jobs for which people were preparing vanished as the economy shifted. Thinking of colleges as job factories turned out to be a mistake: the economy was changing too quickly.

    5. Make the students pay: While dumbing down the education, college became so insanely unaffordable that only the wealthiest can attend or those willing to take on incredible debt burdens that will follow them to the grave.​

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevede...g-the-american-university-in-five-easy-steps/
  9. citygator
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    citygator Premium Member

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    Interesting points, Row, from the article. I get the gist we need to protect our education leadership in the world but not sure that the points are anything more than evolution of the market. I am working in Asia on a several month project and nearly all the leaders/managers I work with out here were educated in the states. The US can leverage education as a key export in a bigger way to drive up revenue.

    My question on Debra's points:

    1. With the belt tightening due to the economy (thanks congress) shouldn't the strong institutions that provide the best value be able to shift the funding from the tax base to those who get the direct benefit? I bet some institutions don't survive just like businesses.
    2. Isn't being a college professor like being a college coach? Meaning there are lots of people putting time and hard work in for minimal compensation hoping to hit it big with a head coaching/ tenured professor position? Same goes for actors, baseball players, New York fashion designers, musicians, authors, and a whole host of jobs.
    3. This was over my head. Reading the link didn't clarify how driving efficiency led to out of control costs and bad education.
    4. This doesn't actually sound like a bad thing to me. The vast majority of college grads should be job ready (with critical thinking skills worked in).
    5. Again, doesnt sound like a bad thing to me. Moving more of the expense to those who gain benefit seems logical. Aren't admission standards for places like UF going up like crazy? Many who post here say they wouldn't be able to get in if they were applying these days.
  10. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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    MichaelJoeWilliamson Well-Known Member

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    Indeed.
  11. QGator2414
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    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    Do people think state legislatures do not understand how to take advantage of the easy federally guaranteed money?
  12. mdgator05
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    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    Whether it is a money maker is not particularly crucial for the function of economics. While the University might not be profit seeking, it is efficiency seeking, such that they can do more with the limited resources provided to them by all customers. Public Universities are a two-sided market, providing a service to the state government and a service to its students (technically there is a third side- alumni who provide donations, but that makes the analysis particularly complicated). In all two-sided markets, the cost allocation is determined by the price elasticities of the two sides of the market. If the state's elasticity remains relatively constant, while the elasticity of demand for the students become more inelastic (i.e. increases in price have a less negative effect on demand), the price will naturally shift to that market and away from the state.

    Private Universities are subject to a more direct mechanism as there is not a second side to their market. So as the elasticity become more inelastic for their students, they will charge more directly.
  13. Row6
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    Row6 New Member

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    Uh, maybe, but the bottom line was not part of either beginning or running our Land Grant Colleges. They are investments in an distant future with no guaranteed return (grads must stay in state for 5 years, whatever). I don't think your analysis applies.
  14. corpgator
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    corpgator Well-Known Member

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    Student loans are far too easy to get. They should only be given to the brightest students. Anyone who didn't maintain a high GPA in HS and didn't score say above a 1200 on the SAT should be denied a loan and made to foot their own bill.

    College classes are significantly watered down. A good 2/3 of students have no business being their. Coincidentally, they are the ones who see it is a 4 year vacation where they can party, skip class, and delay becoming an adult.
  15. jmoliver
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    jmoliver Active Member

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    A great deal of the increase should be put on politicians in Tallahassee (as usual). Just how many colleges and universities do we need in Florida? If FAMU needed a law school, which they did not, why put it in Orlando? Each one with a President that makes over $ 500,000. The junior college president at Palm Beach College makes over $ 500,000 a year. Let that sink in a little.
  16. oldgator
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    "As pointed out in the article linked in the OP, tuition increases at state U's are primarily a result of state legislatures cutting funding, a bad trend which further makes State U's parking lots for Daddy's Audi gift, with no rooms for bicycles. Nationally, the average income of families with kids in State U's has continually risen."

    in regard to the above---is there a greater rise in tuitions for public universities in red states, blue states, or pretty much the same whether red or blue?

    please note that I phrased the question in non partisan wording.
  17. tegator80
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    tegator80 Well-Known Member

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    Not to hijack this request for information, the reason that the State funding has been reduced each year and the subsequent increase in tuition to be paid by loans and whatnot is because...they can. The pertinent issue is why is there a vehicle for raising university revenues WAY above inflation during times of good as well as bad economic times.
  18. citygator
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    citygator Premium Member

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    I'm not sure that this makes any sense. Seriously, 67% of college students don't belong in school?

    I'm more likely to support loans for students in approved fields (those with payback opportunities) and who stay in high academic standing (more rigorous than today's standards).
  19. candymanfromgc
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    candymanfromgc Well-Known Member

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    With an economy in a downward spiral and lower revenues should education not be effected at all? Would a booming economy reverse the trend in your opinion?

    What is the solution?
  20. neisgator
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    neisgator Belligerent Gator

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    Second to only the black vote.

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