trump's Cuts to H2-B Guest Worker Visas Hurt Small Business

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by fastsix, May 15, 2018.

  1. channingcrowderhungry

    channingcrowderhungry Premium Member

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    This is a major issue right here. It's a double whammy. You pay more to do it right, and then you compete with those paying less under the table. A major problem in the landscape, roofing, and construction industries for sure.
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  2. G8trGr8t

    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    And all the ancillary businesses lose too. Truckers, grocery stores in area, companies that sell them their packaging etc.
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  3. homer

    homer GC Hall of Fame

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    They can do it but won’t for the crappy pay and I don’t blame them.

    I guess if you come here and become a citizen, all of a sudden you can’t do farm work anymore?
  4. OaktownGator

    OaktownGator Guardian of the GC Galaxy Moderator VIP Member

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    First off, how can these people become citizens when there aren't even work visas available?

    Which is the main argument - we should have enough visas for work Americans can't or won't do.

    But second generation Americans are not physically and mentally tough enough to do migrant farm work. No matter where their family came here from.
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  5. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan GC Hall of Fame

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    When's the last time citizens did jobs like pick crops or did the dirty work with crabs? It's been generations. And the story has been the same.

    Immigrants come and do work citizens won't do. They either return home after a time, or they stay and raise a family. And those kids are more successful than their parents, and they don't do the same work. Instead, they thrive, which is why the Cato Institute, a right wing think tank, estimates ending DACA could cost the economy $2 billion.

    The answer has always been the same. Just like the bipartisan commission in 2007 and the Gang of 8 in 2013 proposed, we must expand our guest worker program to allow supply to meet demand. And those who wish to stay should have a pathway to citizenship. Otherwise, more small business owners who rely on immigrant labor are going to struggle, our economy will be dinged, and we'll all be paying more for immigrant heavy products.
  6. OklahomaGator

    OklahomaGator Jedi Administrator Moderator VIP Member

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    An agricultural company that I am familiar with has operations in 6 states in the US and 2 facilities in Mexico. They told me they are short of workers in all 8 locations. I'm not sure that opening up a huge number of H-2 visas would solve any worker shortage problem.

    If it did they wouldn't come from Mexico, but further south.
  7. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    4% unemployment in the state. People aren't going to move into company housing on the Eastern Shore to get a job with 4% unemployment.
  8. G8trGr8t

    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    Not when the taxpayers continue to offer them a viable alternative. And we both know the 4% number is full of holes.
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  9. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    4% is basically people that either you don't want to hire to do anything even marginally skilled or who are just transitioning between other jobs. You are not attracting people out to towns in the middle of nowhere with 100 people to get erratic pay and live in company housing, handing back some of that pay, to go work in a tough job when they can make $15 in their current location at a job with more potentially transferable skills and more steady pay.
  10. Gatorrick22

    Gatorrick22 VIP Member

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    But look on the bright side... wages will go up for American workers. That is something that the Dems love to hear. ;):D
  11. Bushmaster

    Bushmaster GC Hall of Fame

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    Once a problem is properly identified, only then can we address the problem.

    Above there were several posters that stated "Americans can't do this type of work". That problem stems from too many social safety nets where they don't have to work in order to eat.

    Peel the onion back enough and you will see the root cause of this is social safety nets that promote laziness.
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  12. OaktownGator

    OaktownGator Guardian of the GC Galaxy Moderator VIP Member

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    I completely agree on stuff like these stories on lawn care. Ridiculous that we can't get Americans doing that work.

    But 99.9% of Americans are not physically or mentally tough enough to do crop picking which is the primary farm work these people get signed up for. Can't be done.

    I have an uncle who was a DI in CA back in the 60s during some of the crop worker strikes... a local business convinced them to help pull in a crop they didn't have workers for. Their guys right out of basic couldn't do the work. They were gassed and cramping up in a couple of hours, as migrants who crossed the picket lines were doing two to three times as much. That was when Americans were one helluva lot physically and mentally tougher than they are today. If those guys couldn't do it, how many Americans today do you think could do it?

    The children of the immigrants who do this work can't do it either. They're Americanized.
  13. Balbanes

    Balbanes Premium Member

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    Actually, they don't. The companies just "trim the fat" and go into "hibernation mode," so to speak. Take a look at the following article:
    Trump-voting crab town left shell-shocked by his visa changes

    The solution is essentially to catch less crabs and do less business. It also trickles down to essentially everything in the town (the crab bait guy, the general store, etc etc.).

    Low unemployment and restricted immigration = businesses can't find workers. Three possible solutions: 1) hire more expensive Americans, 2) hire Americans who do not want to work or don't have the skills needed, or 3) hire qualified temporary immigrants.

    Option #2 is out, for obvious reasons. Option #3 is currently restricted by the trump admin. Leaving only option #1.

    Option #1
    Hiring skilled American workers is more expensive than hiring skilled immigrants. This is only an option if your profit margin has room to absorb the difference and at least break even. If you are at least breaking even, it is still worth doing the work. Take the following example:
    • Immigrant workers
      • Gross profit margin (total profits before subtracting) per unit of production is $1
      • All net costs of production per unit for immigrant workers (including overhead, salary, etc.) is $0.50
      • Net profit margin is $0.50 per unit of production when using immigrant workers
    • Luring American workers with more $
      • Gross profit margin (total profits before subtracting) per unit of production is $1
      • All net costs of production per unit for domestic workers (including overhead, salary, etc.) is $1.50
      • Net profit margin is -$0.50 per unit of production when using domestic workers
    In other words, staying open costs more money than closing. In reality, there are a lot of other considerations, but the basic concept is there. If you cant afford to hire expensive american workers, and other options are off the table, shutting down is the only thing that makes sense.

    These businesses are shutting down, so we must assume that they're in the aforementioned situation. They cannot even break even paying the wages domestic workers would demand. The only option is to temporarily shut down or reduce production. All of that trickles down to anyone they do business with or that does business with their employees, etc. etc. (its like a butterfly effect). Additionally, the H2B people typically spend much of their earnings while they're in the US. So the net benefit for the community and the economy overall is much higher than we can easily calculate.
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  14. Gatormb

    Gatormb GC Hall of Fame

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    Why should they when the government will pay for their housing, food and health care not to? Plus AFDC if you have kids.
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  15. gator7_5

    gator7_5 GC Hall of Fame

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    Seems to me he's doing the right thing for the country. Now, if only he could find a way to reform gov handouts, Americans may start hanging drywall and nailing on roof shingles again.
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  16. Gatorrick22

    Gatorrick22 VIP Member

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    Out whole system of banking, finance and government is "trickle down... So that's just a strawman argument/issue. We know that the workers would love to get a job and then own the place in which they work. If the wages do not go up than quit and find a higher paying job... It works for millions of Americans.
  17. homer

    homer GC Hall of Fame

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    You don’t have much faith in the physical abilities of people that become US citizens and those that have been here from the start.

    I see them differently.
  18. Balbanes

    Balbanes Premium Member

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    Pease explain, in specific, how my post is a strawman argument.
  19. OaktownGator

    OaktownGator Guardian of the GC Galaxy Moderator VIP Member

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    You are correct sir.

    As already stated, if guys fresh out of boot camp 50 years ago (when Americans were far fitter than they are today) couldn't do the work that migrant farm workers do, Americans today sure as hell can't do that work.

    And I'm not sure why anybody would want to... have you seen a migrant farm worker in their 40s or 50s? It is back breaking work and it shows.

    Again though, I agree there are other less demanding jobs that Americans should be able to handle and shouldn't fell like they are "above". I don't know how we best kick them in the ass and put them to work, but we need to.
  20. AzCatFan

    AzCatFan GC Hall of Fame

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    From 1942 through 1964, 5 million legal low skilled immigrants came into the country legally through the Bracero Program. And even though the Bracero Program ended, the immigration did not. That's why Reagan passed the amnesty law that legalized another 2.7 million immigrants, and could have legalized more had everyone eligible actually applied. And the last 30 years, the number of illegals in the US has grown to about 12 million in 2009, reduced down to 10 million during the economic crash, and is currently close to 11 million. In other words, for the past 76 years, we have had a steady stream of immigrants doing unskilled labor, but yet somehow, some way, if we change our welfare laws, American citizens will suddenly start doing jobs they haven't worked in 4 generations?

    If you look at some welfare statistics, the largest participants in the programs are children. The next largest group are elderly, and 1 in 3 welfare recipients stop receiving welfare in under a year. And those who are receiving benefits the longest are generally receiving medicare or medicaid, meaning they have chronic health conditions.

    If you want to look at unemployment, the average length someone is on unemployment is less than 6 months. And that's average, Many find new employment even quicker. That means, the current 6.1 million unemployed (4.1%), and 6 months, over 3 million of them will be gainfully employed. Now I don't know about you, last time I was unemployed (job downsized and outsourced), the last thing I wanted to do was work a manual labor job at minimum wage, as I put the majority of my attention at finding a new job. Which I did in about 12 weeks, and found a job that paid a lot more than minimum.

    Last but not least, there is an estimated 8 million illegals who are currently working (the other 3 million are school aged children, non-working spouses, and some elderly).

    So after reviewing all these facts, does anyone truly believe that the fix to our immigration issues is to increase enforcement and change our welfare laws? Or should the answer be what a bipartisan committee came up with 2007 and again in 2013, expanded guest worker program with an eventual pathway to citizenship?
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