This needs to be fixed!

Discussion in 'RayGator's Swamp Gas' started by timmy1, Jan 9, 2018.

  1. benheb

    benheb GC Hall of Fame

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    Why arent championships considered part of the playoffs? It's exactly like that - you earn your way in.

    Who are Bama's permanent east opponent? Tennessee and they sucked ass th8s year. Why isnt winning your division like a real playoff? Your body of work gets you there. Saban has a wunderkid at QB that he didnt play until the second half of NC game. So what if at that moment it was the best team. It sure as hell wasnt with Hurts in there and he played the whole game against Auburn and Gumps got the crap beat out of them. If they had played UGA in championship game is everyone saying gumps would have won? It makes no sense to me that they were the "best" but cant win their own division. Auburn beat bama like a drum but bama is obviously better? Why not put all sec teams in?
    Yes - in hindsight. And Alabama was getting clearly beat by halftime but put in a qb that probably should have been put in to get them winning auburn game. But play it safe, leave mediocre qb in. Skip championship that team that kicked your ass all over the field has to play and loses. Rest up, work on extra plays, get more film on team youll end up playing - win and you clearly are better than even the team that kicked your ass.
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  2. benheb

    benheb GC Hall of Fame

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    Is bama better than Auburn? Not on the field but only by limited application of transitive property.
  3. intimigator1

    intimigator1 GC Hall of Fame

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    Why you ranked teams since that can be manipulated.
  4. SeabudGator

    SeabudGator GC Hall of Fame

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    Plenty of teams complain about not getting into the NCAA tourney. However, those that complain, as well as those seeded below number 8, have never won (villanova won at an 8 seed). Thus, by historical proof, the NCAA tourney could be cut in half and be just as fair.

    If we all agree that actually playing games is a better way to determine a champion than voting, the only two questions are how many teams get to play and what is the format (to folks saying fans won't travel I say you are wrong b/c they do for other tournaments and TV revenue drives this, not fan attendance). As for how many teams could win in football, clearly 4 is a minimum but I think any of the top 8 could pull it off. That is why I'd go with 8.

    The final point is that somebody will always bitch. This year UCF is bitching. If we have 8 teams then one year it will be the ninth, just like the 65th team in the NCAA tourney bitches. But the point is - their bitch is a lot less persuasive than voting 2 teams in and leaving out number 3, and we should not let perfection be the enemy of better.
  5. GatorSean

    GatorSean GC Hall of Fame

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    On this logic though none our our NC winning teams were the "best" because all of them lost a game. How could we be the national champion in 96 if we weren't even the state champion?

    The truth is great teams, even the "best" team, lose games. That doesn't mean they aren't the "best" team.

    It's also not like Bama got in over an undefeated P5 team. Bama got in over a TWO loss osu team. If the body of work is what matters, then Bama was the clear choice anyway.
  6. Skink

    Skink GC Hall of Fame

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    This all makes sense. My own opinion is that I don't have a lot of sympathy for a team that wasn't selected into a field of 8 -- if you're not good enough to make that cut, you should just try harder next year. Same with basketball: you weren't selected into a field of 64? Hey - come back next year with a better team.
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  7. BrianUF5220

    BrianUF5220 GC Legend

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    For the most part, you are picking 6 teams that are probably the 5th thru 16th best teams. I am not sure committee needs to be put together for that. 10 of the teams are automatic by going to the Conference Champ games.

    I would use some kind of formula similar to the BCS that takes into account the polls and computers. I do not think the BCS formula was all that bad (just 2 teams sucked) and again, you would be arguing probably only the 16th best team here.
  8. WESGATORS

    WESGATORS Moderator VIP Member

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    Identifying that Alabama is the best is an assessment of how they fared over the course of the season. Does it make sense to you that Auburn is the "best" team in their division but couldn't beat LSU? Lets look at how they fared against common opponents:

    vs. Clemson: Auburn lost 6-14, Alabama won 24-6
    vs. MSU: Auburn won 49-10, Alabama won 31-24
    vs. Ole Miss: Auburn won 44-23, Alabama won 66-3
    vs. LSU: Auburn lost 23-27, Alabama won 24-10
    vs. Arkansas: Auburn won 52-20, Alabama won 41-9
    vs. TAMU: Auburn won 42-27, Alabama won 27-19
    vs. eachother: Auburn won 26-14, Alabama lost 14-26
    vs. Georgia: Auburn won 40-17, lost 7-28, Alabama won 26-23

    Auburn is 6-3 in like games inclusive of their H2H matchup with a scoring differential of 289 to 180
    Alabama is 7-1 in like games inclusive of their H2H matchup with a scoring differential of 253 to 120

    Surely you can see why some people might consider Alabama a better team than Auburn, no? Is Troy a better team than LSU? They were one night, but not over the course of the season.

    Go GATORS!
    ,WESGATORS
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  9. benheb

    benheb GC Hall of Fame

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    Best over the course of the season... hmmm. The nature of playoffs does not consider that. You get one shot. The difference in our argument is I think the 5 championship games should treated as a playoff game... you don't. I want the human bias bs out of it as soon as possible. The conf championship games are earned, not voted on. That is the bottom line for me. Bama couldnt make it and probably benefited by not playing in it. Its that simple. Bama was going to lose that NC game unless satan puts in that kid tbat UGA didnt prepare for. They lost the barn game because hurts was mediocre but gumps didnt have to take chances. They played it safe. Skipped the game and got another shot and still were losing NC game until "genius" put in the phenom that apparently had been looking better than Hurts in practice for awhile Take that human bs political stuff out of it. I hear commentators gush about the brilliant move by Saban but dumb ass me thought they didnt have a chance witb Hurts at halftime. So we can talk about who was "best" over the course of the season but those arguments are supported by data polluted by human bias (polls). That is the sum of my argument. Instead a group of humans that may or may not be influenced by rabid fan bases decide.

    Playoffs are decided by who's playing best for that game. You cant have it both ways and compare common opponents. Hell, Auburn beat the ever living crap out of bama on the field and prevailed over a predetermined set foes when it mattered. You can talk about "common" opponents all you want with "scoring differential" but I dont know why youre wasting anyone's time with that when you have a conference championship to settle it on the field. What use is conference play then? Heck, lets use scoring differential instead of W and Ls to determine conference champions.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  10. WESGATORS

    WESGATORS Moderator VIP Member

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    Sort of, it depends on the "nature" of the playoffs, as you say. No playoffs does the best job of rewarding the best team over the course of the whole season. EPL does this for example. Not possible for FBS football since you can't have every team play every team let alone multiple times. So we went to a 2-team playoff to see if we could pit the best two teams over the course of the season, and so on and so forth. At some point, it's possible to expand the playoff enough to where the "nature" of the playoff does not consider that, but why are we deviating from that concept at all? A 32-team playoff is certainly not about the best team over the course of a 12-game schedule, but a 4-team playoff still is (or should be).

    5 conferences? You're showing your bias. There are 10 conferences, so 10 conference championship games to determine 10 playoff participants? Notre Dame, join a conference? Where does your bias stop or how do you accommodate an unbiased system?

    Go GATORS!
    ,WESGATORS
  11. benheb

    benheb GC Hall of Fame

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    My bias stops at practicality. Youve got to add 3 teams outside power 5 for an 8 team playoff. You think your point differential approach is fairer? I'm not sure why you think your arguement is more inclusive for the non-power 5 conferences. Dont you think using power 5 as play in for 8 team playoff removes human bias m9re than naything you are defendig?
  12. benheb

    benheb GC Hall of Fame

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    Agree with you and bitching isnt the reason I think winning power5 championship should get you in and rest should be non-power five. Think of this scenario. Conference chamionship involves two undefeated teams and every other team in country has 2 losses. Why does it make sense to stick the defeated team from conf champ in playoff? Even if those two teams are clearly the best in country? You had your shot, why get another? What if those two best teams play each other again with different outcome? You see it with officials you see it with playoff committee - name brands get preferential treatment.
  13. AFCyberGator

    AFCyberGator GC Hall of Fame

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    There is no perfect system to protect everyone's equities in a college football playoff. I like the system the way it is unless the following changes are made: 1) conference championships are playoff spots, 2) all conferences play the same number of conference games 3) all teams play the same number of FBS teams 4) the entire bowl system is revamped. Out of those conditions there are multiple ways to create a 4, 6, or 8 team playoff system, but without making those changes it will not matter if we expand the playoffs--at least not in most cases.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
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  14. WESGATORS

    WESGATORS Moderator VIP Member

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    My point was simply that you are suggesting removing bias, but the system is built on a fundamental bias. The only way to have an unbiased system would be to computer generate the conferences based on a hypothetically agreeable criteria. Don't look for the SEC to disband any time soon, so as it stands, we are playing with a loaded deck. Let's not pretend that we are not playing with a loaded deck.

    Now take it further, if we recognize that all conferences/divisions are not created equally and that the P5 conferences are stronger than the G5 conferences, doesn't it also stand to reason that we can use the same logic to determine that the best teams of some P5 conferences are head and shoulders above the best teams of other P5 conferences? If not, why not? If so, then why the concern of being inclusive of each of the P5 conferences if they haven't earned their way?

    Go GATORS!
    ,WESGATORS
  15. benheb

    benheb GC Hall of Fame

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    computer approximations were removed by the collective outrage of the monied, biased folks that now claim Bama should have been in there of course - damn just look at the point differential.

    Jeez, as a gator I'd think you'd have some perspective on the bs that UF was exposed to when the national media almost unanimously argued that UF had no business playing "the" OSU for all the marbles. The game of the century was all big 10. Now everyone realizes where the money is. 2 SEC teams need to get in the mix. Bama lost to Barn but they deserved a chance because, gosh darn it, they deserved it with the genius saban bending the rules and observing the letter of the law but never the intent because he's so smart. Those bama fans will continue to faithfully spend a lot of money and watch a lot of football.

    CBS fully endorsed and supported Bama getting in there because they're just so... fair.

    They have no interest in skewing the argument here. Holy chit is it that difficult? You can't win your conference you shouldn't play for the NC - why is that so hard a concept?
  16. benheb

    benheb GC Hall of Fame

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    look, I can't argue with the fact that bama "appears" to have been the best team with their freshman QB that I'm sure they acquired above board.

    I'm saying tht Bama losing and not playing in the SEC championship should have disqualified them from participating in the playoff. I don't understand how everyone's feelings or point differentials figure into this. I definitely hate them but I think I have a reasonable argument and the national consensus for Bama over conference champion OSU is not based on logic but on political bs. There is a simple mathematical formula for the team that wins conference. The stuff about which team was the best over the course of the season is fraught with a lot of BS clouded with money distribution.
  17. Juggernautz

    Juggernautz Don't tread on me! VIP Member

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    Pretty much sums up the argument in my book!
  18. benheb

    benheb GC Hall of Fame

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    let's not play the SEC championship game. It means nothing... but point differential does.

    No more silly tallying of wins and loses that is used by losers that just want to play for conference championship.

    We should all want point differentials from common opponents to count and overall feel goodness and just awesomeness of a team to count more than whether they won or loss. Bama is just awesome and Saban is the greatest and most advertisers and television networks agree. They definitely out awesome everyone else. They have the most assistant coaches and sign more kids than other schools do but that's because they're so smart. They got destroyed by Auburn but no one would argue that they weren't more awesome than Auburn. Those dumb ass barns lost to another team they destroyed just weeks earlier. Sucker losers....
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  19. benheb

    benheb GC Hall of Fame

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    Thats your reading of my logic? We won our conference every time we won it all. We played in SEC championship game and won all three times. I dont have to look that up.

    Bama has everyone so cowed its ridiculous. Cant win their conference but theyre so great they deserve another shot... wtf. First one for us in 96 we barely get beat by rival outside conference but win toughest conference to get another shot. Second one we win toughest conference and get disparaged by everyone. The BEST teams ever are OSU and Michigan.

    What are you talking about "best teams lose games"? SEC pioneered the concept that there is a championship game to prove whos best and Im not a gump bitch that will defend them because they lost one little ole game and didnt make it to the conf championship game. Gosh but who would would argue with their greatness? No, lets put it in the hands of people who cant wait to get in there and plant a wet one between saban's butt cheeks.
  20. hockeygator

    hockeygator GC Legend

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    They go 8 teams and three years down the line too many would complain that team 9 didn't get in. People said this all along that 4 wouldn't last long before more were added. It will devalue the season