There goes another $42mill on a bad "clean energy loan.."

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by dadx4, Sep 6, 2013.

  1. dadx4
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    dadx4 Well-Known Member

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    When will this chit end for crying out loud.

    VPG, of Allen Park, Mich., received a federal loan in 2011 under the same clean-energy program that provided a $529 million loan to electric car maker Fisker Automotive Inc. Fisker had received $192 million before a series of problems led U.S. officials to freeze the loan in 2011. The Obama administration has seized about $28 million from California-based Fisker, which has laid off three-fourths of its workers.
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  2. bposs
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    bposs Well-Known Member

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    In about 3 years.
  3. Emmitto
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    Emmitto VIP Member

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    Fiskergate? I thought it ended back when certain corners were predicting like a $250M loss.

    I for one totally support this program. Energy will be the next monumental, fundamental economic revolution and I hope this country is the one that leads it (I'm biased.) And we'll have to take risks. To this point I'm satisfied with the results. That could change as more results come in.

    What is it that you want to end, exactly?
  4. Gatorrick22
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    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

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    What happens to the extra money that wasn't used up by companies like Fisker? Where does that money go?
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  5. Emmitto
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    Emmitto VIP Member

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    Do you mean the difference in what they received (around $190M) versus what they were originally SET to receive ($529M)? If so, my understanding is that it's now back in "the till" and could be appropriated by Congress if they so desire. But I may very well be wrong about that.
  6. dadx4
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    dadx4 Well-Known Member

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    I know some of these "executives" bonused themselves and paid themselves very well before imploding.
  7. Emmitto
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    Emmitto VIP Member

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    Probably, although I've never looked into these particular ventures. Just like executives do at virtually every company, independent or on the government dole. I recall the HP honcho getting like $13M as a reward for overseeing their precipitous fall. I don't like it either. Is that your primary concern?
  8. gatordowneast
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    gatordowneast Well-Known Member

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    My concern is a. Government picking winners and losers when handing out government loans. b. When those receiving the loans coincidentally, happen to be Obama contributors.

    Kind of like the IRS scandal, Emmitto. If it were Bush and "Progressive" groups were being targeted and liberal donors being dragged in on the carpet for audits following large donations to Democratic causes, what would the response be?
  9. Emmitto
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    Emmitto VIP Member

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    I don't follow about the picking winners and losers when handing out loans.

    I don't care if they're contributors or Haliburton so long as the project has a valid shot at production and/or pushing energy production forward. Frankly I doubt that Ford or Nissan were big Obama supporters, or at least exclusively. Those companies received $7.5 BILLION in that program. Tesla was also in it. VPG was the last one, with a $50M loan. That was the smallest loan by a long shot. I imagine in part because it was the riskiest.

    Tesla is a success. Hard to believe Ford or Nissan will fail. It looks like the other two will, although the losses will be in the tens of millions, of about $8.5B. And VPG was acquired by another company who intends to continue to pursue the technology.

    So in the short run we can add up the bad loans and then attempt to add up the economic impact of the successful ones. I'm guessing that ends up being a positive assessment but it's mainly conjecture at this point. But in the long run it could be that these investments were monumentally wise. Or not. But if not for those loans then the best car that Consumer Reports ever tested isn't made. And who knows where that leads.

    And it's also not surprising that green companies would lean left. But again, I don't care. When monstrous contracts are given to right leaning weapons manufacturers, I don't care that they're right leaning. They have the best shots at making the weapons well.

    As for the IRS situation, I expect hissy fits from whichever side gets screwed in a political battle. Do you expect the winner to announce they feel bad for winning?
  10. gatordowneast
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    gatordowneast Well-Known Member

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    Winners and Losers=Companies or industries government backs with advantageous loans or legislation.

    As to the IRS, I can't even imagine the "rage" if the targeted groups had been "progressive" and donors audited, liberal Hollywood types.

    Bush was the one who put together the auto loans and I disagreed with it at the time.
  11. G8trGr8t
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    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    winners - solar, wind, 0 supporters, buffet's oil railroad

    losers - nat gas vehicles, consumers, national energy security policy, pipelines, economy, children and grandchildren who will have to pay abck the borrowed billions wasted

    meanwhile, China, with nat gas that costs 5x what ours does, is spending billions on nat gas vehicles and fueling infrastructure



    Chinese leadership is almost entirely engineers, US leadership is almost entirely lawyers..go figure
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  12. Emmitto
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    Emmitto VIP Member

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    But that's how loans work. Certain companies and industries get better deals than others. I'm fine with it at my local bank and I'm fine with it at the federal level. I mean clearly corporate welfare is out of control and I'm in favor of major refinements overall. But I don't consider this the same thing. It's not permanent and it's designed to be monumental in scope (the advancements, not the loans) over the long haul. Perpetually subsidizing companies and industries who pay an annual access fee is a different story.

    Plus, if they picked winners and losers then we wouldn't be having this back and forth. Clearly some of the winners being picked are losers. Of course that's also how investment works.

    And natural gas isn't a green or emerging energy. Vehicles and power plants all over the country have been running on it for years. Even so, the VPG loan that went bad was indeed a natural gas project.
  13. Emmitto
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    Emmitto VIP Member

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    And they invest in renewables at remarkable rates, including wind and solar. And carbon cap and trade. And hundreds of billions into reducing consumption.

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