The One and Done: A Discussion

Discussion in 'Nuttin' but Net' started by BengermanV, Mar 30, 2014.

  1. rivergator
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    rivergator Well-Known Member

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    Is Calipari creating this or is he getting the level of players who can and want to leave after one year? According to Rivals, we offered Randle. We offered Embiid, who is apparently leaving after one year. Would we have turned down Wiggins if he wanted to play here?

    But I do hope that Florida's success does convince other players that maybe staying in school isn't such a bad thing.
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  2. CFITB
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    CFITB Member

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    Cal doesn't recruit one-and-dones, and neither does anyone else. All coaches recruit the best players they can get. That also applies in football and most other collegiate sports.

    What players do after they step on campus is up to them and subject to the rules of whatever professional organization they wish to play in.

    Why do people continue to act as if this is a Calipari thing or Kansas or Duke thing ? Donovan has recruited the same players - given them scholarship OFFERS. The fact that some of them didn't take those offers is no reason to condemn the coaches that those players ended up playing for.
  3. CFITB
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    CFITB Member

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    here's a Gator fan that gets it. You guys also offered schollies to OAD's Bledsoe, Knight, Rivers, and Beal...just in the last 5 years

    It's real easy to take the anti-OAD angle when most of those guys go play somewhere else.
  4. NoahBeanBizzel
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    NoahBeanBizzel Well-Known Member

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    ^ There was a time when Billy recruited a ton of kids who either played only one or two years before they were off to the NBA-or oversees. I remember when we signed James White, David Lee and Kwame Brown. Only Lee stayed for a substantial period of time; Brown never even made it on campus. We were getting incredible talents. We still do and, I believe if Donovan really wanted a roster full of kids like that, he could do it. He's openly denied making any changes to his approach in recruiting, but I've definitely noticed that we signed a lot more projects over the years, who haven't necessarily made much of an impact during their first/second year on campus, if they did they were further along defensively than they were on the other end of the floor, and he's sort of developed guys like Tyus, Parsons, Macklin, these four seniors, and even the '04s took a few years to turn into lottery picks.

    Whether he's actually changed his philosophy or not, I guess he's the only person fit to answer that question. I just know that we don't seem to have the turnover now that we did prior to the back-to-back titles we won.

    By the way, we're not exactly scorned over the fact they chose to play elsewhere; we're the best team in college basketball right now with the talent we've gotten, have won thirty consecutive games, and beaten you guys three times this year. There's no underlying jealousy involved in this discussion...
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  5. NWGaGator
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    NWGaGator Active Member

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    I'm having a hard time trying to figure out if that last sentence is sarcastic or serious. If it's serious, then if UF loses the next game to UConn, does that really mean that Pat Young's four years at UF don't "ultimately matter"? Win or lose, he has grown and learned and become a new and better person, as have the other seniors. I suppose I'm incredibly naive, but I always thought the purpose of school, be it secondary education or college, is to make yourself a better human being. In my mind, money doesn't enter into the equation. I realize that I'm totally out of touch with today's society, which measures human value by how much money a person has, but when Pat Young said he wasn't ready to give up the experience of college yet, and that he wanted to return for his fourth year, he had learned something far more important than money.
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  6. phideltdj
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    phideltdj Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree with Billy...this is America and if an 18 year old wants to bypass college to go to work he can...why is the NBA exempt from this law. If an NBA team wants to draft a player from high school so be it. Maybe a high school kid could declare for the draft and if he doesn't get drafted than sign with a college team. I don't understand why the NBA is allowed to come up with this ridiculous system just to protect themselves from losing money or having to develop a minor league system like baseball.
  7. rserina
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    rserina VIP Member

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    Donovan has never been against "one and done" players. But he also hasn't celebrated the NBA age limit and turned it into a recruiting strategy. Between Cal's WWW and NBA connections, his supposed NBA pedigree, and his ball dominant style of offense, he has convinced players that they can showcase their skills at the most visible hoops program in the country in order to make the league. And he is right.

    Furthermore, whereas Calipari recruits the top prospects in the country without any concern for roster balance or development, Donovan handpicks certain kids he will recruit who would fit into what we do. He has always targeted elite prospects with similar characteristics: mostly versatile, multidimensional players who compete, who aren't ball dominant, and who value development over showcasing themselves (that's why, despite his interest, we never spent much time on O.J. Mayo, for instance). What we run simply isn't as accessible for incoming freshmen--which we see in the progress of Hill and Walker, who were right there with every current UK freshman on the prep circuit other than Randle. We run far more on offense than UK does, we do more things defensively, and we press with a variety of looks. We just aren't a good fit for most of the kids who are looking to leave immediately for the NBA. They know it and we know it.

    Donovan does far more developmentally than Calipari has ever done, though. I mean, how many kids have improved appreciably in multiple seasons under Cal? And how have they fared at the next level? The majority of stars who came through Memphis (Wagner, Rose, Evans) were add-water sorts of kids. Guys like Rodney Carney and Chris Douglass-Roberts never lived up to their potential because they didn't round out their games in the DDO. The litany of underdeveloped, regressed, or transferred talent at UK is already growing: Orton, Lamb, Jones, Goodwin, Wiltjer, Poythress. Outside of Cauley-Stein, and maybe Darius Miller, I can't think of a single UK kid with a high career arc as a result of playing for Calipari. He has been benefited far more from some of these kids than they have from him.
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  8. rserina
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    rserina VIP Member

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    As soon as NBA labor steps up and makes a move, it will happen. But they don't have much motivation to do so and a one-year wait in college is hardly problematic enough for these kids to challenge in court. Hell, Randle makes more money at Kentucky now than we will earn on his rookie contract (just joking, of course...I think).
  9. Lawdog88
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    Lawdog88 Well-Known Member

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    Preach it, Brotha'.
  10. CFITB
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    I pretty much said the same thing. Big difference between signing guys and offering them. Billy has offered several of the same guys that you fans criticize other coaches (mainly Cal) for signing.

    and to the poster above talking about jealousy - nobody is saying UF should be jealous of Cal's system. You guys have had a great year and are still the faves for the title. However Cal and the Cats have topped UF's accomplishments in his time at UK and that's even IF you win it all this year. You may not be jealous and we don't expect you to be, but please don't expect any UK fan to admit that your "system" (which in reality is the same as Cal's) is any better.
  11. peteypab
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    peteypab Member

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    I dislike that Kentucky is winning with the one and done system, because it validates what Calipari is doing and I would much prefer to see players that work hard for years at a school rewarded with championships than a bunch of one year players. But you can't deny that Calipari has had great success in the tournament with this system.

    If Donovan all of a sudden started getting all the OADs it would not make me stop rooting for the Gators, but I feel winning would not be as satisfying.

    At this point Calipari has his team playing at an elite level. I fully expect Kentucky to beat Wisconsin. If it comes to a UK-UF final, I think the game is basically a toss up. UK showed they would not go away against us in the SEC tournament and proved that it was no fluke in the NCAA tournament so far.
  12. mdfgator
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    mdfgator Well-Known Member

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    Bingo, while I am happy that beal played for us, I feel like I don't know anything about him. Now compare that to pat, will, Scottie and Casey and you have an apple and a watermelon! I like the way billy is doing things, I do think however that's it's fair to point out caliparis way is not available to most out there. It's like being a fat ugly person mocking the good looking guy that cheats!
  13. BengermanV
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    BengermanV Well-Known Member

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    This kind of mentality is exactly why I don't root for Kentucky to win. Somehow it always comes back to them being better than everyone else.

    A hint for you, CFITB: None of us care. Nor would any of us EVER in a million years trade the situation you have at Kentucky for the one we have at UF.
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  14. tommyuf21
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    tommyuf21 Well-Known Member

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    Certainly, there are two more games to be played in order to see how this plays out.

    However, IF we were to win it all this year, I'd have to say that Billy and Cal are pretty close to even. Cal would have one more Final four appearance versus our Elite 8 that year.

    And Billy would have accomplished that with much less talent.
  15. benheb
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    benheb Well-Known Member

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    Agree with your post.

    I guess there are UK fans that are okay with the one and done approach. The ones I know don't like it. If some like it, more power to them. I prefer our approach. It has been validated but more importantly, I know our team and I get to know them and that seems worth more even if the record ends up being 3-1 versus UK.

    I understand what you're saying with number 4. I'd like to see some of the risk removed from the kids that have to make the decision. It's a disincentive if I go to college and I'm forced into two years. Maybe we should increase the incentive for kids to go to college like guaranteeing a full scholarship no matter what if they maintain the grades. I don't know the answer

    I don't expect Kasey Hill or Chris Walker to be here for their senior years but I don't think they were ready to go this year. They got a good deal as do most kids that attend Florida with superb coaching and development. That should just get better and better for us as far as recruiting goes.
  16. benheb
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    benheb Well-Known Member

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    If we win it this year, I think I might argue the "topped" comment.

    It's not the same system - as others have said, we have a couple of guys that could be OND. It's obvious to anyone who watches us play that these type of players will not be just plugged in but will have to learn quite a bit and play a different role than they are used to.

    You're also ignoring comments from your own coach that OND is not sustainable and he will have to change his approach.

    You're the one that sounds jealous and I expect you to be. I think you realize what it's like to be a Florida fan with the teams we field and the relationships we have with our players. I do think that having a bunch of guys wearing your jersey for a year before they make the big bucks is just fine with some fans.

    Maybe Calipari was just lying when he said a different approach was needed or maybe I just heard it wrong. But congrats on the FF.
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2014
  17. regurgigator
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    Yep, long before Cal came along to UK, most of us on this board were applauding Donovan for going to a more balanced approach (going after some elite one-and-done type players and some players expected to stay longer) in his recruiting. So, no, we're not saying it just because we can't match Cal's recruiting prowess.

    And, even if Donovan offers some of the same players as Cal, one reason he won't get them is (as reserina points out) that Billy doesn't shape his whole approach to coaching to launch players into the NBA as soon as possible. If we had gotten all the one-and-done players Billy offered, you can bet Randle is probably the only one who would have earned a starting role. It's also a direct reason why some of those one-and-done players don't sign with Billy.

    As much as UK fans and rivergator want us to believe that Cal's recruiting isn't really any different than Billy's (just more successful), nothing could be further from the truth. Cal's methods are unique and uniquely unappetizing in the world of college basketball.

    I'd prefer not to live in a world where a group of cocky we'll-go-undefeated freshmen can come in and flail around for most of the season and get it together right before the Tourney and win the championship over a bunch of veteran-rich teams. But, maybe I do. I guess we'll see next weekend.




    BTW - I disagree with Donovan and hope the NBA does raise the NBA age limit as is being proposed. I think it's better for the vast majority of players, better for the popularity of college basketballs, and better for the popularity (and quality as Charles Barkley recently said) of the NBA. And, the NBA has every right to enact such limitations in its league.
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  18. buddhistgator
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    I appreciate your frankness there. It just doesn't sit well. When you refer to the team you love, do you fall in love with a new team every year or do you love the UK label they perform under?

    I guess the question I would ask is to what extent do relationships matter in all of this.

    I root for UF because I spent 4 fantastic years there. I climbed on top of the O'Connell Center the year it opened. I ate at Burrito Brothers. I went tubing on the Itchatuknee. I graduated. Gainesville is in my marrow.

    The guys are on our basketball team will have a lot in common with that. They just didn't attend the athletic program at UF, they go through the whole school experience as well. Their identity as a team is continuous because most of the guys remain from one year to the next.

    The relationship of our head coach with the players is a model in human development. UF's cup runneth over with Donovan and his humility as he sets a standard for developing young men and teaching them about team play and dealing with adversity. It's a very familial relationship and as fans we can relate to our blue collar guys because they aren't as distant from us as elite stars.

    What I see at Kentucky is worship of the basketball product that is disconnected from a lot of the shared human experience that most schools experience with their basketball program. It's not much different than rooting for the Lakers or the Heat. There is zero pretense that these guys are choosing to come to UK for any aspect of the university unrelated to basketball.

    All that said, I don't think there is anything wrong with rooting for the Laker's or the Heat. I just can't imagine that it's more satisfying than watching a bunch of unsung and hard working kids dig it out of the ground. In Gainesville.

    My rant is over. I actually feel better having written that and not so attached to the UF winning it all.
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2014
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  19. Distant Gator
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    Distant Gator Well-Known Member

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    The years run together but I was sure Billy changed his recruiting philosophy after the 01-04 period when he had such upheaval and won a total of 2 NCAA games in 4 years.

    I remember hearing how upset Billy was after that loss to Manhattan and that he would change his approach in recruiting. And it does seem like we didn't go after as many Kwame Browns and James Whites of the world.

    Something seemed to change in 04/05. Or maybe it was all just a coincidence.
  20. REM08
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    REM08 Well-Known Member

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    I'm reading a lot of "our way just has to be more fun" talk and wondering why it matters? I'd guess it probably is more fun in some ways, but IMO we're talking about an extreme amount of fun either way.

    Also, some of you are lecturing about what its like to have players stick around like it has absolutely never happened at Kentucky and like Cal has been UK's coach for the past 100 years.

    You guys remember Tubby Smith? Everyone LOVED when he was at UK. In his long tenure at the school he shied away from one-and-done types - until, of course, he landed a bunch and failed at coaching them. He wrote the book on relying on multi-year players that weren't going to jump to the NBA the first chance they got - mainly because most of them never had a first chance at the NBA in the first place. Either way, remember what Tubby has to show for all of this? He won a title with Pitino's players his first year and never even made another final four. Cal has matched his title already (but did it with his own team) and has three times as many final fours. Should I long for the days of Tubby because I got to see Sheray Thomas and Bobby Perry year after year?

    Should we want to go back to Tubby? Or, no, are we supposed to want Donovan instead? Is that really an option for us? Doesn't appear to be to me. Tell us then, who is going to bring us more success than Cal has had that would be available to us at UK? Who has had more success than Cal since he arrived at UK period? Some of you, not all of you, speak as if UK fans should turn their noses up at the success Cal has brought to Kentucky.

    You'd think by how some of you seem to frame Cal's time at UK that we've had players flunking out or taking fake classes, huge problems with suspensions, arrests, fighting with other teams, fighting within UK's team, etc. No. Its just that more of the players Cal is able to sign have the option of making millions of dollars after only one year of college and have chosen that option over a second year of college. That's the difference I see.

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