The Cancerous Libaral Lie of Unbounded Positive Rights

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by mocgator, Oct 1, 2013.

  1. mocgator
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    mocgator Well-Known Member

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    As eloquent a dissertation on the obvious as I've seen in a long time. Liberals will be confused...


    http://www.redstate.com/2013/09/25/...ts/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    An alliance of Progressive Organizations is attempting to counter 23+ hours of truth from Senator Cruz with thirty-one seconds of disingenuous horse-hockey. They rail at Republicans who vote to deny other people healthcare. They rail at Republicans who vote to deny other people food stamps. It’s as if being an American implies that you have a natural right to have the government give you goods and services that originally belonged to, or are produced by somebody else.

    In the bizarre world of “Positive Rights,” we get logical constructs that would totally destroy the social contract of any society that attempted to fulfill them. There is never any logical limit to what can be claimed as a so-called Positive Right. In the real-world, to all of these limitless demands are attached similarly limitless costs

    The true cost of Medicare is stunning. In 1990, rather than costing American taxpayers $12 billion, Medicare cost $107 billion – an increase of 800% over the government’s best guess at the program’s cost 23 years before.
    That cost has increased exponentially as the years have passed since 1990. This year, $484 billion will be spent on mandatory Medicare outlays; by 2018, that number will be $885.1 billion, according to the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office. The total amount owed Medicare beneficiaries (American workers who are at least 22 years old and who have paid into the system, meaning they are due Medicare coverage upon retirement) is a staggering $32.3 trillion – an amount over twice America’s GDP, and nearly five times the publicized national debt.

    But if we make Universal Healthcare a positive right for all Americans, you have no moral or philosophical right to object $32.3Tr, or to $323Tr. You didn’t build that, and it’s Constitutional, (expletives)! But Obamacare will be different because Progressives these days are so much smarter. Oh, wait…. And wait, by the way, is exactly what the US Senate has advised that its own members do before they sign up for anyone’s HIX.

    So the Progressives have decided Healthcare, a complicated service, provided by highly-trained professionals, at a high rate of cost is now a human right.
  2. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    The UN General Assembly confirmed it in 1948:


    But this is still not the case here. The ACA does not make healthcare a "right," especially a "natural" one as mentioned in the OP.
  3. fredsanford
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    fredsanford VIP Member

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    We get it.

    Some of you want a country unburdened by Social Security, Medicare and universal health coverage.

    Tell your preferred elected representatives to include cutting those things in their platforms. Let's see if those ideas prevail.
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  4. icequeen
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    icequeen Well-Known Member

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    Yes they did. But they didn't confirm that people had the right to get everything in life for free, either. Or to take the money meant for food and purchase Coach handbags. Or to move to a country illegally and then lie to collect benefits. Or to stop working when they're able to just to collect benefits.

    There is a point where there needs to be accountability and a cutoff to aid. It should be just that, aid - not a free handout. Those that are truly in need - yes. Help them. Help them get on their feet, feed their kids, find viable jobs, etc. Absolutely.

    But the abuse of the system just needs to stop, and when people try to cut those abuses or the excess, it becomes all about "oh, you're against the poor", or "you're not Christian", or "you don't understand", etc. In reality, by cutting the fat off the system and by making plans to get people through the system and back out into the regular economy that leaves room to help MORE people who are truly in need.

    I don't see people with designer purses and brand new cars driving off after using their benefits card as ones that are really in need.
  5. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Shab, it is less about dismantling those than to stop lying that they are anybody's "right". Nobody has a "right" for time, money, or labor to be taken by law from someone else, for their benefit.
  6. fredsanford
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    fredsanford VIP Member

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    Nobody has a right to take money from me and start a war I don't agree with to boost their Halliburton stock options. However, people voted for someone who did that.

    It's the unpalatable notion of representative government, but it is what it is.
  7. PSGator66
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    PSGator66 Well-Known Member

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    I think happy start early at Fred's house! Almost half the country is on disabilty and if you think there will be Social Security in the future you would have to be dreaming. For those of us who have contributed for over 30 years will likely never see dime one and you can thank the government.
  8. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    I guess this would be the "liberal" response to the OP's argument.

    http://www.salon.com/2013/08/27/the_right_is_wrong_about_rights/

  9. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Bumper sticker pablum. Nobody has claimed a "right" to do as you describe. Ironically, what you are complaining about is a perceived overreach of government authority and use of the fruits of your labor; welcome to the tea party.
  10. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Trying to convert natural rights theory into positive right fallacy is straight up intellectual fraud.
  11. QGator2414
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    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    It is frustrating how selfish some are. I just wish they would look their kids in the eye and tell them exactly how selfish they are and how they are owed what the government says even though they did not pay enough to cover it. Therefore you (my kids and grandkids) should pay for it...

    It is a SAD reality...
  12. icequeen
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    icequeen Well-Known Member

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    And a conservative might argue that excessively taxing one group to give free things to another group would be a violation of our Right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

    Life - you're taking money I can use for food, shelter and my own medical care to give it to someone else. Tax me enough, and I can't afford my own medications or copays.

    Liberty - I don't have the right to make a decision for my personal benefit or the benefit of my family because my hands have been tied. If it's a personal choice not to get health insurance, I should be at Liberty to do so. The government doesn't own me, so they shouldn't be able to tax me/penalize me if I choose not to do so.

    Pursuit of Happiness - I cannot raise my family in the standard of living that my earnings would allow me to do because so much of my income is being taken to give to someone else to raise THEIR standard of living. I cannot advance higher in my field out of fear that a promotion would actually DECREASE my standard of living by increasing my tax bracket.

    ________________________________

    The arguments can go back and forth and any which way you want. What it has come down to is why bother working or trying to get ahead in life when the government will come in and take care of everything forever?

    I know my husband might be getting promoted and we've already looked at the tax hit, and he's trying to put it off. I know I could get a nicer job once my son's in school, but if I do, we're going to take a big tax hit, so why bother? We would actually lose money in advancing ourselves. That's not only sad, it's un-American.
  13. mocgator
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    mocgator Well-Known Member

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    How can any intelligent or moral person convey the idea that something is a "right" if another person must be coerced or enslaved to provide it? It's non-nonsensical.
  14. GatorRade
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    GatorRade Well-Known Member

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    The "cancerous liberal lie"? Don't you think that a group continually claiming media bias should be a bit more discerning in the types of articles it promotes?
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  15. QGator2414
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    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    Yep.
  16. icequeen
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    icequeen Well-Known Member

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    That part I agree with. I've learned to dislike titles like that - they set the reader of either leaning into an extreme mode before reading the article.
  17. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    Unless anyone is "forced" to become a doctor, or prevented from discontinuing to be one, then this argument really doesnt hold up at all.
  18. dangolegators
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    dangolegators Well-Known Member

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    You provide it willingly, by choosing to live in this country and by choosing to make the amount of income you do. You most certainly aren't 'enslaved'.
  19. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Stay and Obey -- liberal substitute for patriotism, like ideological Olestra.

    Similar side effects, too.
  20. QGator2414
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    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    The thoughts of a statist...

    Then again you surly want to take over the construction industry to build affordable shelters for all as well.

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