The aftermath of racial violence and race relations after the Zimmerman Case

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by MichaelJoeWilliamson, Aug 26, 2013.

  1. Row6
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    Row6 New Member

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    What was intriguing to me about this research - at least as I understood it - was that there were two different unrelated areas of focus which appeared to dovetail to this as a possible factor in the rise in crime, and now it's decline. Additionally - again as I understood it - was that whereas earlier crime was higher in the cities, the rates now are more or less uniform across different types of living conditions, which could possibly be explained by higher lead pollution due to autos in cities. The height of our crime wave - 1970's and 80's - corresponded to the highest periods of lead emissions. I usually am not moved by claims made by what I consider health fanatics, but this one makes some sense, though it is not conclusive.
  2. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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    MichaelJoeWilliamson Well-Known Member

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  3. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    I understand well what the legal standard is. I was simply speculating based on the available evidence that TM's actions, in this case allegedly punching GZ first was actually TM acting in self-defense, and to some degree that is not irrelevant (well it is now, but not for purposes of discussion). The evidence that was available--mainly GZ's own words, the phone call to police dispatch, and Rachel Jeantel's testimony--suggest to me that is is very possible that is what had happened. TM's dead so we can't know, but FL's self-defense statue does say that someone has a right to defend themselves with non-lethal force based on the reasonable belief that they were imminent danger. I know we can't really know and as you said, it will be relevant for a civil trial...since the preponderance of evidence standard is much lower.
  4. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    So you believe Zimmerman was stalking Martin or otherwise acting illegally before Martin justifiably struck him first?
  5. OaktownGator
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    OaktownGator Well-Known Member

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    It is possible that GZ initiated the altercation, but the only evidence that might have happened is the questionable testimony from the Jeantel girl.

    We'll never know how the altercation started.
  6. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    Call it an exercise in my attempting to put myself TM's shoes, so all I am saying it's possible based on some of the evidence, albeit with key details missing.

    There's another way too. GZ pursues TM and after getting out of his truck but really does stop pursuing TM after the dispatcher asks him not to. But he still gets out of his truck to look for a house number and TM mistakes this as him pursuing and does the same thing. In this way, both GZ and TM were acting legally under FL law. Same legal outcome of course, even if I do personally believe that moral culpability falls on armed GZ's shoulders and not the teenager walking home from the store.

    No we won't, but I like to speculate about the circumstances. :)
  7. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    jdr, I am far from sympathetic to Zimmerman, but I don't know how that theory survives the admission by Jenteal that Martin arrived at, then left his home. That sounds like an inherently retributive or vigilante move, i.e., the same reasons to criticize Zimmerman.
  8. Matthanuf06
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    Matthanuf06 New Member

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    There are racists, bigots, and folks that discriminate in all groups.

    However in modern America it is clear the blacks are by far the most racist race in America. It isn't even close. And the media is complicit.

    And before someone just says im racist or protecting my group, I'll just as quickly say heterosexuals are a far bigger group in terms of orientation discrimination than homosexuals. So I'm not protecting my group.

    The recent cases just highlight my point. With GZ there was no evidence he was racist, that he profiled TM because he was black, or anything of the sort. In fact evidence shows he was not racist at all and was very friendly with blacks. Yet the media called him a racist and wanted it to be a hate crime. Then take virtually any of the recent black on white crime, in many cases it is clear the perp was a racist. In the case of the baseball player one perp tweeted about his racism and how he beat up white people for the heck of it. Yet does the media push that? Where is the cry out for a hate crime?

    It's almost so absurd that it cannot be real
  9. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    The metanarrative must be protected at all costs, or the weltanschauung will tumble like a house of cards leaving us in an uncomfortable and uncertain existential void.
  10. northgagator
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    northgagator Well-Known Member

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    .
    There is proof.
    Jessie Jackson Is the living proof. Jackson is a race baiter and has made a good living from it.
    Have you ever noticed that Jackson is always putting out the message that minorities are defenseless victims. Has Jackson in the past twenty plus ever gone out and given a speech that was about empowerment? A speech that instructed minorities that they are the only ones that can put them into a victor's position instead of a victim's position. Have you ever noticed how Jackson used the media to pressure employers to hire minorities? Have you ever noticed that Jackson does the same thing to the state and Federal Governments to increase entitles? When was the last time you ever encouraged minorities to go out and get a job? Or go out and get the skill sets to be employable? Or go out and tell African American men to stay put with the women that they impregnate and be a father?
    I believe that Dr King would be pissed that Jackson has turned the Civil Rights movement into a money and power maker for himself and his felon son.

    Note: Prior to Dr King's death some members were suspicious of Jessie Jackson's motive and ambition. Jackson's actions soon after King died created a rift in the SCLC
  11. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe that is what Jeantel said. I think it was something to the effect of him "getting close" to home. And "close" in this regard can mean a heck of a lot, especially after walking 8/10 of a mile from the store.
  12. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    So tell me north, what would Dr. King say about the right wing obsession with Jackson and Sharpton? Especially one that seeks to use them as a way to stereotype all African Americans as being victim card players, etc...?

    Seems to me those so focused on them are avoiding actually trying to have a constructive conversation about the real, deeply entrenched problems.
  13. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    Supposing that is true, is there any doubt that he could have reached home safely?
  14. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    Supposing it's true, no, not really any doubt...but under Florida law Trayvon wouldn't have had to.
  15. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    How is that different than any different than Zimmerman?
  16. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    It wouldn't be.

    But for the sake of argument, assuming what I laid out is true (which we'll never know of course), it could have very well changed the way self-defense applied or was handled in the jury room. In other words, if there was more evidence on the earlier events, then GZ wouldn't necessarily have been legally justified in using deadly force (he would have been required to make an attempt to stop the physical altercation first).

    As it is, the jury got it right under the evidence and instructions they were given; I am not making an argument to the contrary, just that I don't believe that the scenario played out as GZ wants us to believe.
  17. Minister_of_Information
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    I admit there are many scenarios in which Zimmerman's use of force was illegal, though none of them were sufficiently established to secure a conviction. However, unless you can put someone on the scene that saw Zimmerman brandish his weapon or otherwise cause by some act rather than mere vibe the reasonable belief to arise in Martin that he was under imminent threat of physical harm, it is hard for me to envision scenarios where Martin's striking of Zimmerman first would be a legally justifiable act without resorting to conjecture. If you are talking street justice you have a better argument in my view.
  18. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    I understand your point completely. And I agree none were there to support conviction, not with the evidence at hand and the charges being brought. Heck even that one juror who thought he was guilty couldn't because she had to follow the law and jury instructions on how to consider the evidence. Nevertheless, 17 year olds, or actually no one should end up dead for doing nothing but minding their own biz trying to walk home in the rain. We'd be excoriating the police had it been an officer who induced the problem that led him to using deadly force, and to some degree I think it's justifiable to hold GZ morally responsible given his seeming negligence.. His heart might have been in the right place--I don't blame people for taking measures to protect themselves, their property, or neighborhoods/neighbors--but if paranoia, bad assumptions, and the carrying of a firearm converge to lead to behaviors that place others unnecessarily at risk, well then I would consider it criminal.

    Anyway, from the outside without all the facts, I/we can will never be able to say for sure...unless of course GZ decides to write a book a la OJ Simpson saying "if I did it (deliberately)"... :)
  19. Minister_of_Information
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    I guess where I keep getting hung up is the striking Zimmerman first part, which is in my mind aggravated by his alleged proximity to home. I'm not sure how, given the current state of the evidence, I can consider that equivalent to minding his own business and simply trying to get home. And I sympathize with the point about taking imprudent LE-type or appearance-of-profiling actions while carrying a concealed weapon, though I don't know how to square the circle there and create a uniform standard that encompasses all scenarios equitably. Furthermore it is hard to propose any set of standards in the Zimmerman case that would have resulted in a conviction other than complete public disarmament -- definitely a bridge too far for me. Whether we like to admit it or not, no matter how sympathetically we view Martin's youth, if he was engaged in criminal conduct when striking Zimmerman, Zimmerman's use of force tends to be justifiable.
  20. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    I hear you. I don't know if there can be a uniform standard, however, given the finality of the such incidents, i.e. where one person is dead, the circumstances and psychology of the actor(s) become much much important. No death, it's just a fight b/t...slap wrist, move on. Death simply ups the ante.

    We might have to disagree on being near the home. Like I said, I was just fleshing this out in my mind...and to be completely open about it, I really do think if that were me, I'd probably fight too and I'd probably strike first. Call it the code of the street, youthful bravado etc...but whatever it is, likely either masks fear or has turned fear into situational aggression.

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