The aftermath of racial violence and race relations after the Zimmerman Case

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by MichaelJoeWilliamson, Aug 26, 2013.

  1. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    The poor are less likely to issue from stable social circumstances, making them less likely to adopt the mores of society in general, which in turn makes them less likely to participate in its economic rewards.

    But poverty does not equal crime. Poverty incentivizes crime.

    Social aggrievement does not equal crime. Aggrievement incentivizes crime.

    Lack of fathers in the home equals crime, as it correlates most strongly with gang involvement, which correlates most strongly with crime. And a mishmash of liberal and conservative policies lead to a net effect of lack of fathers. Government assistance that requires the removal of fathers from the home is part of the problem. Drug prohibition and poverty incentivize drug crime. The drug war removes men that might still form a useful part of the community and turns them into absent, criminalized, martyred symbols of fatalism. And this infusion of fatalism into underclass culture reinforces the already questionable practices of the underclass, including its contempt and even hostility towards the law, and begins a new cycle.

    If you want to break the cycle, you have to deal with it all, not just that which appeals to your ideology.
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  2. Lawdog88
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    Lawdog88 Well-Known Member

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    Hey, drink more, type less.

    You can handle that.
  3. Lawdog88
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    Lawdog88 Well-Known Member

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    Very useful commentary.

    Anecdote alert: In a post-conviction motion in the trial court (I was not the trial attorney), I just got 5 years shaved off of a young African American's 25 year sentence (convicted: aggravated battery with a firearm; two separate victims struck by projectiles my client fired from a Glock .40 cal) on a jury instruction / charging technicality.

    IMO there are excellent arguments that could be made on appeal, that are somewhat complicated but could get him a retrial.

    I quoted my appellate fee, and his folks called, wanting the file back. The kid filed his own notice of appeal, and when I delivered the file, I mentioned to the mother that the appellate issues are tricky, but could be won, so be careful.

    She said not to worry, kid's dad is going to help him write the brief. Dad, of course, is familiar with the justice system, as he is serving a life sentence himself for robbery and kidnapping of a minor. Good luck with that.

    The traits are either genetic, or culturally expected, I think.
  4. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    Dad is in prison, of course.

    I think we've been overthinking this, it isn't that complicated really. I mean it is but it isn't. I work with people of all races in my job, and one thing I've noticed is that the vast majority of the people I work with that are able to work consistently and accept supervision without major complaint had at least some consistent male presence in the home, whatever their race. I think in most cases they are quite literally imitating the example of their fathers or father figures to hold down a job and earn a living.

    Another factor: the juvenile delinquent elephants. We are much more controlled by instinct and environment than we imagine. Social dominance is associated with higher levels of testosterone, so that it typically correlates with adult males in their prime, while the testosterone levels of younger, untested males with less status is repressed. Remove that hierarchy and I'd be willing to bet that you will induce higher levels of testosterone in young males -- making them more aggressive, prior to acculturation, prior to establishing within themselves some sort of idea that they are capable of protecting and providing. Thus they are deeply insecure and yet more aggressive as a consequence -- first they are bluffing, then they hold society in contempt and become antisocial. No one can fill the mature male roles but mature males, and they are needed. Then when this mode of behavior becomes part of the culture, it really runs away with itself. And you get what we see on the streets.
  5. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    I would be happy to pm them to you if you'd like. Not going to impugn your character any more than I've already done, passionately or not, lol.

    Much thanks for being the gentleman that you are.
  6. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    There's lots to agree with, MoI. Let me add on a little. First off the juvenile delinquency elephant is many ways the (street) crime problem...well let's extend that out a bit to say at least 25 years old. Indeed if you look at the history of criminology it is a history of the study of juvenile criminality.

    But for the sake of brevity, I'll just post these things:

    Moffitt's dual taxonomy

    Anti-social/crime paradox--most folks in jail and/or prison have documented anti-social personality traits; yet most juveniles who have documented anti-social personalities actually grow up to be law abiding citizens.

    And a few other things to keep in mind:

    --serious violent crime has been dropping for over 20 years; with the largest decrease occurring among African Americans

    --As the age crime curve shows below, most folks--black or white or brown or yellow--age out of crime by their mid twenties, but not only that...

    This same basic "tee-pee" shape to the curve has been found throughout recorded history of crime and across geography; case in point see the second pic, just by way of example.


    Age-crime curve:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  7. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    Funny, Hall! :) (comment below this)
  8. HallGator
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    I walked into a convenience store this afternoon and the clerk was a young black man. Nicely dressed and courteous. To the side stood a woman a little girl of about 5 who gave me a dazzling smile. She too, was neatly dressed and I kind of got the idea that was the man's wife/gf and daughter from the conversation they were having as I started to leave. My point being that if I was to revisit this young man's life in 10 years I got the distinct feeling he would be successful and it would have been a good father. Don't ask me how I drew so much inference from a casual stop in the store but that was exactly the way it felt.

    Not even sure what my point is other than just wanting to inject it in the conversation.
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  9. gatorplank
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    gatorplank Well-Known Member

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    I posted an article from that author the other day and my thread got deleted. Apparently one of the mods thought it was a troll, but I think we need to start talking about the larger phenomenon of black mob racial violence that the leftist media wants to sweep under the rug.
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  10. HallGator
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    I will quote part of a post made by GatorGrowl the other day on the subject. Other than the owner and his secretary Growl is the last word on things around here.

  11. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    What explains the 70% decrease in homicides, 61% decrease in robberies, and 56% decrease in aggravated assaults since the early 1990s?

    It's certainly much higher by rate compared to whites still, but we can't ignore just how much their rates of violence have come down. I mean, a 70% reduction in homicide rates is pretty astounding no matter how you slice it


    [​IMG]

    *Trends reflect rates per 100k (Bureau of Justice Statistics 2013).

    The alleged 3/4 of all black children being born to single mothers might be true but if it were so directly connected to violent criminality, how would explain the drop in violent crime among African Americans?

    As for the black on white crime; we just went down this road:

  12. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    I wonder how that decline compares with two factors:

    1) the growth of the black middle class
    2) the growth of incarceration
  13. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    Well that is because it is a troll article...

    Case in point, after framing the article about "black mob violence" being out of control--mind you not mob violence but black mob violence...

    ...he posts some pretty gruesome but ultimately randomly selected crimes (which weren't really mob violence, but never mind that makes a nice headline), though certainly gruesome nonetheless

    ...only after describing folks as savage degenerates, because nothing says non-racist than using the same terms whites have been using for blacks since they were ripped from Africa

    ...only after posting some pretty horrific crimes perpetrated by African Americans

    ...only after making a number of absolutely random points about African American criminality without any actual analysis about why these chosen points are important

    ...only after after calling crime committed by African Americans a growing cancer (really, did Buchanan just sleep through the last two-two years?)

    he does a 180 and brings us this charmer of sentence:

    Really? That simple? It's just bad values?

    But then just as quickly as he wrote that it's not about melanin in the skin, he pivots away to this whopper "Thug culture celebrates the degradation of women." (well maybe it does, but so does a lot of music by whites and movies by whites and well a lot things in our culture...Joe Francis someone's leaving you out of an article!).

    But yet, even though he claims it's not about skin color, he contrasts African Americans with whom? Recent immigrants from Asia, who have "good values."

    In other words, Asians=good; Blacks=Bad.

    Now we get to the meat of the his real issue. His white man grievance which is blowing up on the internets and on these boards. Problem is, his grevience isn't really really talking about the problems in the black community at all. It's about attacking Obama, Sharpton, and Jackson...the trifecta of the bogeymen In other words, it's just a political screed.

    Me thinks he tried a bate and switch.

    And now for the final kicker, ripping the soft bigotry line from Michael Gerson. That's it. It's an alleged soft bigotry that has created all the problems for African Americans and it's apparently only a bigotry that existed recently, about the same time the grievance industry sprouted up...probably somewhere around January 20, 2009. Implicitly what he is saying though is that racism just doesn't exist or at least not on the right.

    In any case, gatorplank, this is why the story is a troll. It supposedly wants to be a taken seriously as some "thoughtful" and honest foray in to crime problems affecting the black community does little more than trade in the same reductionist stereotypical thinking and race baiting that the author chastises the left for doing.

    I don't believe for a second that all conservatives are racist but my goodness, if you want to talk about the problems in the black community, it's probably better not to be so completely obsessed on bogeyman and the politically convenient but superficial issues while also treating the problem as if it really is just about skin color even while claiming it's not. When you do these things, you forsake substance for nonsense.
  14. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    In part, both probably play a role. Though the growth of the black middle class is not quite as large as we think and well the entire middle class is struggling to keep pace.

    Imprisonment, yep, it does have some. Studies have provided estimates of anywhere from 0-30% of the reduction in crime can be attributed to imprisonment. Now the 40% is the highest I've seen and comes from Marvel and Moody, see also Levitt (of Freakonomics fame). Both are good studies, but just as Levitt's abortion thesis, the high numbers have come under some whithering, legitimate scrutiny. If I had my guess, it's not 0, so I'd probably say somewhere between 8 and 15 percent. Certainly not minor by any means, but Marvel and Moody's finding is not standing up to empirical reality.

    And here's why, I believe (you mentioned this before)...

    Percent male juveniles in a community is a typical measure for crime studies and claims made by a number of criminologists in the early 90s (James Alan Fox and John Dilulio are two of the most well known), said crime was going to be out of control the 1990s and 2000s because there were going to be so many more children of baby boomers coming of prime crime age.

    Dilulio called them "superpredators" (a horrendously loaded and ultimately tragic word to use). In any case, it caught on like wildfire.

    Problem is, juvenile and early twenty something crime reductions since the 1990s have had the strongest correlation with the twenty year crime reduction. Makes sense of course (if you see that chart above) since juveniles commit nearly 50% of all street crime in the US (well in most countries, actually).
  15. gatorev12
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    gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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    Glad we agree on the first part there. Ironically, this is an example of the justice system largely working IMO...with the one exception being the prosecutor and State Attorney's office being pressured by public opinion to "do something" even as the greater weight of the evidence suggested GZ's story checked out.

    As to the second...you're confusing judicial standards here. The State doesn't need to prove TM's actions were reasonable or not--their burden is proving that GZ's actions were criminal. TM wasn't on trial here...so the "reasonableness" of his actions are largely irrelevant. Now, they would be relevant in any civil trial, but not necessarily in the criminal case.

    In saying that, I'm not a criminal attorney, so this is mostly based on stuff I learned in law school, but law can correct me if I was mistaken anywhere.
  16. Lawdog88
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    Lawdog88 Well-Known Member

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    For those who may think that the current generation of children is not going to have any impact on allegedly falling crime statistics and everything is hunky-dory, they might want to get the take from someone who actually delivers social counseling services to low-income families (persons, as it may be) in urban areas, and ask them for their observations.

    It may be only anecdotal as opposed to statistical - at this point - but my wife and I have a close family friend who worked up the counseling ranks and now supervises a group of low-income social service counselors providing such services in North Carolina (having done so for thirty years or so; she still carries a caseload).

    She reports that there is a well-populated class of children from urban, low-income, unstructured / unsupervised / undisciplined / dysfunctional and disrupted one-parent homes "coming up," that are largely out of control and causing one hell of a lot of problems - now - in their limited social and educational environment. Based on her experience charting these kids and their families over time, she believes many of them if not most, will be causing much worse problems in society at large in the not too distant future.

    She says that they are not being reared with: any life-skills or proper socialization skills; any understanding of discipline or consequences; virtually no respect for elders, teachers, or authority in general; no work ethic, sense of discipline, concept of effort over time, or delayed gratification; to name a few. Sure, these are her observations from both working and supervising only thousands of cases, not tens of thousands, so call it a small sample from North Carolina.

    It's just an anecdote. For now.
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  17. Row6
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    Row6 New Member

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    Liberalism
  18. Row6
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    Row6 New Member

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    Still no credence to the "lead poisoning" theory?
  19. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    Good point. Still very early. I know some folks are looking into it but I haven't really followed any of the research, yet. Certainly a really interesting theory, imo.
  20. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    There is no doubt many are out of control. And though anecdotal, you'd find reams of empirical support for it, but...and there is always a but, the population of who is out of control has shrunk, and to some degree, it looks like even the level of "out of control" isn't what it was in earlier decades...though the latter is harder to measure.

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