The aftermath of racial violence and race relations after the Zimmerman Case

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by MichaelJoeWilliamson, Aug 26, 2013.

  1. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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    MichaelJoeWilliamson Well-Known Member

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    Disagree


    What evidence did not support the claim? The wounds on both men supported the claim. You seem to argue that a dead body and a person that admits to the killing automatically results in probable cause of a crime.

    That is just not true.


    Nope


    Ironic, coming from you. When you devolve to this, the argument often does not go your way. You and Row share that trait.

    Good that you finally went from DOES to CAN. At least you are tacitly admitting you are wrong

    There was no probable cause. Therefore there was no charge. At least, until the race mongers, led by our own President, demanded trumped up charges.
  2. Row6
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    Row6 New Member

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    No juicy headlines prosecuting somebody who killed a black guy, and you ignore the main reason Prosecutors overcharge - leverage in plea bargaining. That doesn't forgive it, but let's get our facts straight. Are all the attorney's on this site defense attorneys? And so many conservatives - what happened to the supposedly liberal and hated "trial attorneys" who keep the democratic party in funds?
  3. cjgator76
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    cjgator76 Well-Known Member

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    I see that the old standby tactic is alive and well, although it doesn't seem to silence as many people as it did in the past.

    [​IMG]
  4. Row6
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    Row6 New Member

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    If it walks like a duck, on TH call it a swan or you'll get banned.
  5. Lawdog88
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    Lawdog88 Well-Known Member

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    Lots of folks I know - middle of the road, live and let live types - have had enough of that kind of red-herring, grade-school shout down tactics, and are starting to speak up.

    There is always the possibility that, instead of reasonable people striving together trying to address the real issues and resolve them - as indeed, MLK preached - it could get really, really ugly.

    A lot of reasonable people I know are fed up with the blame, victimization, and demand game the race hustlers - and other prominent persons - put on, as well.
  6. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    The real danger of the continual use of Alinsky's tactics is that at some point the opposition is no longer fooled by them, or even responsive to them. Keep crying "racist!" and eventually no one gives a damn. Which is a bad thing, because people can rationalize damn near anything once civil discourse has gone bust.

    Actually, that makes me wonder a bit more about Alinsky. If there was ever a recipe for creating a revolutionary environment, it is one in which both sides have ceased listening to the other.
  7. Row6
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    Row6 New Member

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    Hey! Are you calling me an Alinskyist?
  8. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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    MichaelJoeWilliamson Well-Known Member

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    I actually think just the opposite is happening. At one time being called a racist was pretty scathing. It prevented a lot of open, honest discussion and debate. Now, as we can see with Row, him calling us racist and pretending he did not has no impact on the discussion at all. Other than to expose him.

    Those that wish to engage in debate now become free to do so. And the population at large now ignores those fringe elements that continue to squash debate by casting false accusations.

    If everybody is being called a racist, being called one has no impact.
  9. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what you are getting at rev, but I also don't want police to half-ass it either. And yes, over-charging is a problem, in particular when many of those over-charged can't afford a private attorney, which absolutely affects outcomes. And yes, the state has the burden of proof, and yes, they did not meet it per the jury. It's an outcome I can accept since this is how the system operates and I don't think GZ was guilty of murder.

    The point I was making, however, was toward what happened before. Is it speculative? In part, because we don't have full details. But really, we don't have full details that back up some of what GZ claims either, yet that doesn't stop some from pretending as if it's rock solid, infallible evidence.

    But as this case has focused in large part as a right to self-defense, we know enough that GZ was following TM and that TM was bothered by this, and personally, I would think scared, but the language of being afraid among teens and other young males is often spoken as tough-guy bravado...masking that fear.

    So based in part on GZ's own words about what happened in the lead up, in part from Jeantel's testimony about what she heard and based on Florida's self-defense statute, I think it's fair to raise the possibility that TM was acting in self-defense. Under FL law TM only need reasonably to believe that he was in imminent danger of harm, not that he actually was.

    This makes wonder how or why so many supposedly fair minded, intelligent folks who extend out every benefit of doubt to GZ as being completely blameless, can't extend out the the same possibility that some young unarmed teenager was reacting quite rationally and likely legally to some strange guy that was following him at night in the rain.
  10. Lawdog88
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    Lawdog88 Well-Known Member

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    One of the most intelligent posts seen in these parts in recent times.

    We are indeed almost at the tipping point of civil discourse going bust, IMHO, and the President has been not an insignificant - and perhaps, just perhaps, unwitting - playa' in this.

    As you point out, the tired and overblown paradigm of the usual suspects claiming that racism exists behind every tree and under every rock, is long since dead; it was actually false in large degree, even when it held popular sway.

    Ironically, the ones trying to exhume the paradigm by manufacturing falsehoods and crass exaggerations to fit the dead narrative, are actually on the verge of giving Frankenstein new life.
  11. Row6
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    Row6 New Member

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    A typical law post were he accuses a black man of saying things he hasn't and of not saying things he thinks he should have that - well - he actually said today.
  12. DaveFla
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    DaveFla Well-Known Member

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    Right on cue...
  13. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    Would you resent it?
  14. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    This thread has ironically enough changed my mind about welfare policy.

    At this point, I have decided that I support an additional subsidy for AFDC with fathers that remain in the home. It should not make them ineligible for aid as currently, and it would be best if this policy was accompanied by a broad drug legalization or at least decriminalization, that greatly reduces the incarceration of drug offenders. I think the additional upfront costs will offset significant backend costs related to the disintegration of all social bonds.
  15. Row6
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    Row6 New Member

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    Never having read a word he wrote or seeing him speak I don't know. Since all the righties hate him - and seem to be the only ones aware of him - it might be a good thing.
  16. Row6
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    Row6 New Member

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    Probably a good idea.
  17. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    You mean other than everyone important in the American New Left, including the President and Hillary Clinton (who wrote her thesis on Alinsky)?
  18. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    So what would you call your blanket denials that racism even exists any more while making sweeping claims about blacks simply playing the victimization angle?

    How is it helping the discussion when you want to simply blame folk for being poor as if poverty is simply a sign of bad character and not the conditions in which one was overwhelmingly born into?

    And what of the fixation that folks on here have about Sharpton and Jackson? ...as if they are the only two African Americans that speak out about issues facing the black community? I know you know they aren't but I see no effort to move beyond just holding those two up in order to cast all other blacks as being just like them, if they even remotely believe in anything those two say. It's that dismissiveness of yours that is easy to see.

    Truth is though the discussion and work in the black community has been about trying to fix the very problems, but you are so focused on Sharpton and Jackson you are too trapped by the same tired bogeyman claims or you are just unwilling to actually go searching for what might be a much more complex story.

    And to that, I don' think you are completely wrong about what's affecting many in the black community, only that you are engaging in some of the same superficial treatment of the very issues you raise while claiming that is what they are doing.


    Even so, I am sorry with how I phrased my earlier comment to you. I should have used better judgment.
  19. cjgator76
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    cjgator76 Well-Known Member

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    LD, MOI and MJW -

    I agree that for many people the all purpose "racist!" cry has lost its impact. There has just been too much wolf-crying.

    However, for many - probably most - people the charge still carries weight, especially in contexts other than anonymous message boards. And as MOI mentions, the constant cries of racism where none exists leads to wel intended folks just tuning out the entire subject. This pretty much makes meaningful discussion impossible, which is unfortunate.

    I have to chuckle whenever I hear today's liberal leaders call for a "national conversation" on race.
  20. Lawdog88
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    Lawdog88 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you should have.

    And if you want to show me some broad and sweeping quotes where I said anything like you are portraying, I will be happy to respond to straighten out any misperception on your part.

    But true to form, you are a passionate man, an intelligent man, and a man of character, and I totally understand what visceral reactions are to subjects that are sensitive to the heart. I have often had visceral reactions, myself.

    Your apology is accepted.

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