Taser Death of Graffiti Artist Israel Hernandez-Llach Revives Debate

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by gator996, Aug 13, 2013.

  1. oaklandroadie
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    oaklandroadie Well-Known Member

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    Good. One less tagger. Can those cops move out to California, and start tazing our taggers?

    BTW, 3 taggers killed an old man out here earlier this year when he attempted to stop them from producing their "art."
  2. toon66
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    toon66 VIP Member

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    Bingo.

    My question to 996 is this.

    Given the circumstances that we all agree upon based on the newspaper article. If you were the police officer, what would you have done in this situation?
  3. gator996
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    gator996 New Member

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    They were chasing the kid....
    They know the kid...
    No suspicion of any weapons on the kid....

    Vandalism?

    Tackle him...its 5am on the streets of S Beach...a bunch of officers with radios can't catch a 5-6 160 lbs teenager?

    The only option was to use potentially lethal force?


    Amazing.


    QB1
    No one is defending the criminal here....


    There is question about how lethal Tazers are though
  4. gator996
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    gator996 New Member

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    I've heard about all sorts of confrontations that turn violent....


    Should the cops just Taze everyone they suspect in any crime?
  5. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    So they tackle him and he cracks his head on the sidewalk and dies from a subdural hematoma. That's pretty much just as foreseeable a result from the use of that force as his death was from the use of the taser.

    But turn around -- why would you feel better about a good tackling that didn't prove lethal than a tasing that didn't prove lethal?
  6. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    This is IMO being presented as somewhat of a false dilemma. Taze vs. tackle. In practical terms perhaps those are the options, but perhaps the idea that property rights must be defended violently, excessively and rigidly in our society is the source of this dilemma. Chasing the perp away and averting further damage is not exactly the worse thing in the world is it?
  7. toon66
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    toon66 VIP Member

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    It is unfortunate that he died but he put himself in that situation. Reading the Herald article, the last time he was caught he was sternly warned to not do it again or else they were going to "beat the shit out of" him. It should have taken only that to have him decide he might not want to paint graffiti again. He chose not to listen and did it again.

    He really created the circumstances that lead to his death.
  8. toon66
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    toon66 VIP Member

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    Perhaps we should spray paint your house then? Address, please? :)
  9. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Too lazy to go get the ASCII Picard facepalm, so just imagine it.

    Vandalism is a crime, so is criminal trespass and a number of other things. The law neither punishes nor deters anything if it isn't enforced. Would you be content with "chasing the perp away and averting further damage" as the end of the story if it was your home, for instance? Or your shop window? Or would you want the little bastard to have to pay to fix it and maybe get stuck in jail overnight or over a weekend for arraignment so that he learns a lesson?

    Well, that requires the police actually apprehend the criminal in question, which by necessity is sometimes going to mean having to chase or use force.
  10. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    I'd rather you didnt, but if I chase you off in the act, I'm not going to gun you down, tackle you or tase you to make sure you don't get away. It's just a damn house.
  11. gator996
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    gator996 New Member

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    So, not only are the police threatening to break the law the next time they caught him....

    Its now justified to use excessive force no matter what the crime?


    I disagree...and I suspect you would also if cops tazed you for a minor offense.
  12. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    That would be an acceptable outcome, especially if as has been argued, confrontation is fraught with peril of death or great bodily harm to either the perp or cops.
  13. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Nobody else is obligated to share your own disinterest in your personal sovereignty or personal property. Someone vandalizing my home, or my business, that violates me. The kid who did it being chased off doesn't change the fact that I'm now stuck with having to pay to fix it and the sense of vulnerability that comes from knowing they are free to do it again without fear of any sort of consequence other than... being chased off again.

    So, yeah, there is no reasonable argument that the problem here is that the police had the nerve to try to apprehend this jerkoff. There is an argument to be made over how they did it, fair enough.
  14. toon66
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    toon66 VIP Member

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    According to the Herald report, they already tried that the time before and it didn't work.
  15. gator996
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    gator996 New Member

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    So he couldn't be apprehended this time?

    The only option was to taze him?
  16. toon66
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    toon66 VIP Member

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    I have not and would not be in that situation, pure and simple.

    Either way, the stern warning should have been enough. He didn't get it through his thick skull. He wanted to show off in front of his peers and he played with fire. Unfortunate that he died but he put himself there.
  17. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    You're sort of failing to grasp that tasing him and physically manhandling him both come with a marginal degree of risk to his well-being, up to and including his life.
  18. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    Yes, I agree with you. No one else is obligated to share this POV. As I said, IMO we live in a society that overvalues property rights, in the sense that killing or lethal force can easily be justified, whether its the cops in this case, or Zimmerman's concern with burglars. I'm personally troubled by the collateral damage involved in defense of property, but my only recourse is to persuade others that there is something wrong. I'm not going to pretend I have a concrete plan of how things could be improved, but I don't like the trap that is set from the POV of: "well, you can't just let them get away, can you?" Like I said, there is something of a false dilemma here.
  19. scamgtr
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    scamgtr VIP Member

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    Not every tragedy is the fault of the State. Not every tragedy can be prevented.

    This young man was playing a game with the law enforcement community. He made himself notorious, he painted a huge target on his back for some law enforcement officer to take him down, and he ran from law enforcement after being given numerous commands to stop that night.

    I am sorry but portraying him as a martyr just seems a bit disingenuous intellectually. The law enforcement officer has a mission. This kid committed a crime, fled, and had numerous chances to turn himself over peacefully. The LEO was not using "deadly force" in his mind. The suspect charged at the LEO. In the LEO's mind he has to assess the intent of the suspect, whether he is armed, whether he is dangerous, and the extent of the threat he poses to the LEOs and others.

    This is an unfortunate case. It sucks for everyone involved and it has bad facts; but not every set of circumstances can be resolved efficiently and a bow placed on top. Sometimes their are outliers. Bad things happen...sometimes people die for no good reason and without malicious intent. It is usually because both sides make mistakes. I see no hero or villain in this equation.

    Bad facts, make bad laws. Politicians on both sides use outliers to make a lot of crappy laws and make exceptionally bad public policy decisions. No one can protect us from all the ills and malevolence of the world. Yet, because many need someone or something to blame to make the world make sense something has to happen. Bad things like this happen no matter the rules in place or the weapons used; tragedies occur everyday with no rhyme or reason. It sucks for the artist in this case and I bet it sucks being the LEO that shot him with the Tazer.
  20. toon66
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    toon66 VIP Member

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    I can only imagine a cop's mindset when being charged by someone, no matter how slight of build, in a dark alley. Which is why you don't run and you don't charge, you do exactly what they tell you and you be polite. Common sense, dude. I have never been beaten up by a cop and I sure have never been tased. Why?

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