Tactical Situation Discussion: Zimmerman Case

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by The_Graygator, Jul 15, 2013.

  1. helix139
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    helix139 Premium Member

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    Panhandlers =/= muggers. Feel free to leave it to the pros and their average 9 minute response time. I'm sure the mugger will be happy to wait for the professionals to get there.
  2. helix139
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    helix139 Premium Member

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    I agree, but my point was that the problem was that he got out of the car and pursued Trayvon. It was not that he was carrying when he did so. If he decided to engage in a potentially dangerous situation but then decided to leave his gun in the car, that is the point where I would think he was being an idiot. ;)

    Look at the crime rate for CCW holders. It's almost non-existent. Gun owners in general is a different thing entirely, but take inner cities out of the equation and the ratio of responsible to irresponsible owners gets significantly higher.

    It's not at all. Heck, the CDC just released a study a week or two ago backing up exactly what I asserted. Measured with statistics.

    Criminals are going to arm themselves no matter what. They are criminals, hence they don't follow laws. We support the organizations that make it easy for us to arm ourselves and don't try to tell us what we "need" to defend ourselves.
  3. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    It seems like a leap to jump from the denial of easy targets to criminals by CCW lowering crime to the supposition that 6 million citizen Barney Fifes beating the street for criminals makes us safer. It is important for responsible gun owners to see the distinction between the protection of yourself and others and law enforcement and investigation.
  4. helix139
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    helix139 Premium Member

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    They should have the right to make that decision for themselves

    Kind of impractical, not to mention civilians can't own assault rifles without paying about $15k, waiting 6-12 mo, and getting a $200 NFA tax stamp. But sure, why not? I'm for open carry, and that very act is legal in some states. That said, businesses should have the right to refuse service and ask them to leave the premises, and gun owners should have the right not to patronize said businesses.

    Aesthetics are overrated. Benefits would be tangible, however. Someone might think twice about robbing a 7-11 where the owner and customers are walking around with AR-15s carried openly.

    When Trayvon attacked George Zimmerman, he was no longer a law abiding citizen and was not entitled to safety anymore. George, though stupid, was simply a citizen in a public location that he had every right to be in at the time Trayvon decided to attack him. It was tragic, but perhaps Trayvon should have considered that perhaps the man he was about to attack was armed?

    George I'm sure regrets Trayvon's death. He doesn't seem like a sociopath. That said, perhaps he is better off for it as having your head beat against the pavement has a known correlation with brain damage and death. The jury seemed convinced GZ legitimately feared this possibility.

    Again, it's a bad situation, and terrible that a young man lost his life, and I will agree that GZ shouldn't have gotten out of the car. But he was breaking no laws at the point he was attacked.
  5. wargunfan
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    wargunfan Well-Known Member

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    If legally carrying a firearm was any kind of causal factor in increased gun violence the courts would be full of these kinds of cases. The very uniqueness of the TM/GZ case speaks loud and clear that this is not the case. Citizens who carry legally are overwhelmingly law abiding and responsible people.
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  6. helix139
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    helix139 Premium Member

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    You're assuming that those 6 million citizens are all "Barney Fifes beating the street for criminals." As I've stated, the vast overwhelming majority of CCW holders are responsible. For the responsible CCW holder, that distinction is crystal clear and the gun is a last resort when no other reasonable alternatives remain.
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  7. The_Graygator
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    The_Graygator Well-Known Member

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    Incorrect.

    The first time Zimmerman saw Martin and got out of his vehicle Zimmerman never had any contact with Martin.

    Martin had eluded Zimmerman and made it to his father's fiancée's house I believe, where he admitted on the phone to his girlfriend that he was "already there". Martin then back-tracked to go find Zimmerman and then attacked him, so in most technical terms, Martin committed the tactical mistake there.

    The tactical mistake I believe Zimmerman made was allowing Martin the opportunity to sucker punch him since Martin obviously returned with violent intent.

    THAT'S what we're talking about here, the actual confrontation.
  8. The_Graygator
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    The_Graygator Well-Known Member

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    Not what we're talking about, so stay focused on the topic.

    This is primarily about how Martin returned to physically engage Zimmerman and how Zimmerman handled the actual confrontation.
  9. The_Graygator
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    The_Graygator Well-Known Member

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    It's pretty obvious Zimmerman is not a "fighter" or even an aggressive person like Martin was. Martin obviously had a problem with fighting, and of course, Zimmerman had no idea about that either.

    Some keep talking about him originally getting out of the car, but the main point here, at least the one I was trying to convey, was how Zimmerman handled the actually attack scenario by Martin.

    I still believe the shooting could have probably been avoided had Zimmerman had some sort of real tactical training.
  10. fastsix
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    fastsix Well-Known Member

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    You aren't kidding, even worse if the guy is carrying a tactical sword.


    What gets me about all these discussions of about tactics and carrying a gun for safety is that you are far more likely to be injured or killed from a blow to your head. So while it lacks the cool factor and sense of an empowerment of a gun, a helmet is what you really want if you're truly interested in increasing your odds of not dying or being seriously injured. A gun isn't going to do you much good in a car accident, or if you trip over the cat while getting up to use the bathroom in the middle of the night.

    Then again, there's always this...

    [​IMG]

    You can even use it to make breakfast.
  11. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    So long as we agree that being responsible means avoiding trouble when possible, because the stakes are life and death.
  12. The_Graygator
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    The_Graygator Well-Known Member

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    I've had that happen once, nearly nose-to-nose as a matter of fact. and I instantly reacted and placed my forearm in their throat (not hard) and my other hand in a fist that pushed them away from me hard, using my pointer finger knuckle to make it smart when I pushed.

    No thinking about it, just reacted. I stepped back from them and told them back off and don't come near me again.

    That kind of stuff won't get you in trouble with cops, because when someone does that, they're really asking for a retaliation. Unfortunately, it happened right outside of a convenience store in Tally once where they are famous for panhandlers. The clerk saw me come in and was already calling the cops and one showed up in about 60 seconds and came in and talked to me.

    I told him what happened and the clerk confirmed it and he said for me to go on my way. He then went over to the panhandler and ran him off.

    When someone does this to you, you don't ever try to talk, chest-thump, or threaten, or try to back off of them because they have you right where they want you. You react, fast, and show them they're messing with someone they don't want to mess with, because they don't expect you to instantly fight back. One of these kooks could easily just stick you with a knife like that.
  13. The_Graygator
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    The_Graygator Well-Known Member

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    Very true, but every person has a safety zone area and their own comfort level depending upon their surroundings and their particular level of training and preparedness. It's a point of NOT LETTING someone within six feet of me and not being forced to use my weapon that's the key IMO, but I get what you're trying to say though.

    I will assure you, if an aggressor is 6 feet away from me wielding a knife, my hand is already on my weapon. I may get cut on my blocking arm, but the aggressor will be shot within the next second or two. I'll be the one walking away probably with a few stitches.

    But I also know how to block a knife attack too, or at least good enough to where I can get away from them.
  14. The_Graygator
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    The_Graygator Well-Known Member

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    Awesome post Helix. Good stuff.
  15. helix139
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    helix139 Premium Member

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    I've used the phrase 'higher standard of care' in the past. I'd say that is part of (but not all of) being a responsible gun owner.
  16. The_Graygator
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    The_Graygator Well-Known Member

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    Very true, Statistics have shown that CC'ers are more apt not to engage in physical confrontations because they are carrying. I sure as heck would do everything in my power to get away from a fight.

    You tend to have a much more passive mindset with a gun on you.

    But if I was out and about and honestly being goaded and feared I might lose my temper (and it was someone I was sure didn't carry too), the first thing I would do is go put my weapon in my car, and lock it in my trunk. I'd rather get my butt kicked than have to shoot a guy in a bar fist fight. ;-)

    That is, as long as it isn't an actual bar, because then you can't carry in an establish that sells mostly alcohol. You can carry in a restaurant where the liquor sells are less than 50% of the business' profits, but in Florida, you still can't sit at the bar while carrying.
  17. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    Good. Sounds like we pretty much agree.
  18. jimgata
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    jimgata Premium Member

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    According to the trial and evidence presented, Zimmerman was pretty passive despite having a gun.
    In his police interview didn't he say he was on the phone with the police, they asked him the street name, so he got out of his car to check, they told him it wasn't necessary and he said he was returning to the car when Trayvon approached him. That being his comments to the police and not proven to be false( only in the mind of some), who appears to have provoked tthe fight?
  19. whitelakegator
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    whitelakegator New Member

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    Your timeline seems off...wouldn't your scenario appear on the 911 tapes. There's a lag for BOTH Zimmerman AND Trayvon. Everyone talks about the 4 minutes...why did it take Zimmerman so long then as well?
  20. jimgata
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    jimgata Premium Member

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    He did say he circled around several times,but I have no idea if it was not presented in the trial. The police interviewed him, ask one of them. I doubt the states prosecutors knew.
    It is not my scenario, but what has been said by Zimmerman in an interview.

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