STUDENTS MASSACRED Up to 50 dead in terror attack on Nigeria college

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by mocgator, Sep 30, 2013.

  1. Gatorrick22
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    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

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    In other news Muslim radicals kill innocent non-Muslim Christians in the name of Allah... News at 11:00
  2. orangeblueorangeblue
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    orangeblueorangeblue Well-Known Member

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  3. GT Gator
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    GT Gator Well-Known Member

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    Here what you (and other Liberals) don't seem to get....

    There is not a significant problem with violence, and extreme intolerance and oppression within Christianity. There are isolated violent acts and some relatively benign intolerance (i.e., Homosexual marriage), but in general, when viewed as a whole, the religions of Christianity causes very little issues across the world. The same can be said of Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, and most other religions.

    On the other hand, within Islam, whether it is supported by the majority or not, there is a massive problem with violence, intolerance and oppression. And, unlike any of the other world's religions, their violence, intolerance and oppression is often directly supported and endorsed by Islamic nations.

    Making comparison between Christianity and Islam is silly -- really silly. There is absolutely no comparison in the levels of violence, intolerance, and oppression that exists between the two.
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  4. orangeblueorangeblue
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    orangeblueorangeblue Well-Known Member

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    Can you quantify this?

    Again, that's not what's happening. How is this simple point so hard to grasp for some? It's about showing the logical fallacy, not making analogous comparisons to the religions themselves.
  5. Gatorrick22
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    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

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    Rep... I wasn't wasting my time explaining it to closed minds. Thank you for doing it though.
  6. orangeblueorangeblue
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    orangeblueorangeblue Well-Known Member

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    Again, you're missing the point entirely.

    My neighbor two doors down is a devout Muslim, a successful business owner, father of two and a pacifist. The acts of extremists do not define his religion.

    I am a Christian, business owner, father who supports our troops and is tolerant of homosexuals. The acts of Westboro do not define my religion.

    How is this confusing anyone? This is so amazingly basic and self-evident.
  7. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    Rep... I wasn't wasting my time explaining it to closed minds. Thank you for doing it though.

    :wink:
  8. icequeen
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    icequeen Well-Known Member

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    Well hold on a sec. I do get it, HOWEVER, here's the situation.

    Most Christians look at Westboro and say that they're nuts and don't represent Christianity. When they're going to go protest a soldier's funeral or something like that, other Christians show up to counter them. Whenever they say or do something extreme, someone speaks up or acts.

    Westboro protests or rallies every once in a while. Every day in the news it's some kind of attack, terrorist or otherwise, that's being carried out in the name of Islam/Allah.

    With Islam/Muslims, where is the outrage? Where is the outspoken group saying all these extremists don't speak for all of them? Where is the action to get rid of said extremists? Why is it that the overthrow of one so-called extremist then leads to further extremists?

    The issue here is the perception that Muslims in general, by their silence, are lending their support to the extremists. Westboro (to keep using the example) accounts for a ridiculously small section of Christians. What percentage of Muslims are or identify with extremists/violent factions/the truly ultra-fundamentalist base? Pretty sure it's a much higher number.

    They cannot claim to be the religion of peace and then not stand up for peace. They cannot claim to be the religion of peace, and then shrug their shoulders when child brides are dragged to their weddings to be raped. They cannot claim to be the religion of peace, and then attack, maim and kill young girls for having the audacity to go to school. They cannot claim to be the religion of peace, and turn their heads away when militants attack and target Christian houses of worship, killing those inside.

    You're right - no one should judge all Christians by the few hundred members of Westboro. But we're talking about thousands, perhaps millions of Muslims who either are extremist, support the extremist or refuse to change anything. What does that say, then? What image does that portray around the globe?

    If the Muslim world doesn't want to be judge, they need to speak and act against those who are perpetrating these acts and spreading this ideology. We, as Christians, stand up and say Westboro is wrong. We act on it by countering their protests.

    The collective silence coming from the Muslim world is deafening. Their inaction speaks volumes. If they want to change that perception, then act! Do something! Say something! If it's so many people against these acts as some would say, then it should be easy to overthrow and put down. The problem is, that the support is there.

    Edit to add: My OB/GYN is Muslim. She's a lovely woman and probably the best doctor I've had with all my health issues. Wears her head coverings, etc - so does most of her staff who are also Muslim. But she left because fundamentalists tried to kill her for getting an education.
  9. orangeblueorangeblue
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    orangeblueorangeblue Well-Known Member

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    I've always found this casual anecdote kind of lazy. You know a Muslim, what does she think about extremists? My neighbor is fairly vocal about his feelings, and says there's much discussion at his place of worship.

    What would be required of every peaceful Muslim to qualify as "outrage" to the average non-Muslim?
  10. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    Yup, if you go to the CAIR website, they pretty much denouce every act of terror here and overseas. Seems like mainstream Islamic organizations in the US are expressing "outrage." I'm not sure what more you could expect from anyone.
  11. GT Gator
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    GT Gator Well-Known Member

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    The difference?

    The 95% of Muslims, that are non-violent are just like your neighbors, are pacifists -- especially when it comes to violence, intolerance, and oppression within their faith.

    On the other hand, when Christians act improperly, the backlash is massive and immediate -- just look at the backlash against my own Catholic Church when all the sexual abuse cases surfaced. The Church itself wasn't quick to act, but its parishioners (and the Christian-dominated countries where the abuse occurred) overwhelmingly demanded and received relatively immediate change.

    Another great example of the "pacifism" within Islam, is the nation of Saudi Arabia, home of both Mecca and Medina -- Islam's most holy shrines. There, women can't vote, drive a car, or even be in public with a unrelated male. Blasphemy and apostasy is punishable by death! Homosexuality can also be punishable by death.

    But, where is the backlash?

    Could you ever imagine a nation dominated by Christians tolerating that kind of oppression in the modern age?

    Yep, just like your neighbor, the 95% of the non-violent Muslims, are pacifists even toward the home of Mecca and Medina.

    The Muslim pacifists ultimately define the religion.
  12. orangeblueorangeblue
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    orangeblueorangeblue Well-Known Member

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    Because that represents a much greater percentage of Americans? Could that possibly be why?

    Nahhh.
  13. icequeen
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    icequeen Well-Known Member

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    I would expect them to be more vocal, especially overseas. For those here, I would expect them to send money and support to those fighting the extremists. Muslims in the US in general are going to feel safer expressing themselves - I get that. I get the average person is probably scared for their lives and, unlike my doc, lacks the means to leave.

    But right or wrong, the lack of a vocal majority speaking/acting out against the fundamentalists/extremists drives the view that Muslims are supporting these acts. If that seems unfair, then I'm sorry. Public perception isn't always fair. As a Catholic, I cringe whenever people (even on this board) associate all Catholics with pedophilia for example. But I speak up whenever an incident happens. Some of us write letters, some of us contact local victim chapters to show our support, etc. If we were to have that happen at our church I'd be one of the first ones lining up to have the priest run out of town. Plenty of Catholics speak up about it. And once enough do, maybe the jokes will stop, or the comments will let up (as they have somewhat over the years), and people will realize that not all Catholics (in fact, likely NONE of them) support what's happened. But we speak up. We do something about it.

    It's unfortunate that all it takes is one bad act to mess things up, but it's more than one bad act, and they're pretty bad acts. And again, until enough people have spoken out against this and done something about it, I don't know how much can change.
  14. icequeen
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    icequeen Well-Known Member

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    I think another response would be that everyone has been so conditioned not to say anything negative about Islam/Muslims in the media because of the worry of setting someone off. The media and people in general could care less about insulting Catholics/other Christians, and that can be a good thing because when something bad happens people feel safe calling them out on it.
  15. orangeblueorangeblue
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    orangeblueorangeblue Well-Known Member

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    Again, this is largely a conflation between a small group and the larger one.

    In the example above, did you hear about "Christians raping boys and covering it up?" I didn't. They talked very specifically about the Catholic Church. It would have been insulting and stupid to attribute that to "Christians" versus the Catholic Church.

    Similarly, why say something negative about Muslims when something happens within a smaller group? Would that not be the same conflation?
  16. GT Gator
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    GT Gator Well-Known Member

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    You're being obtuse.

    Unfortunately, the Catholic sexual abuse cases were not limited to the United States. It happened in a bunch of different countries, mostly in countries where Catholics were either the largest or the majority denomination.

    Across the world, in those countries, there was a massive backlash. The Catholic Church was forced to change in all those countries and around the world.

    Similarly, there are atrocities occurring daily in countries where Islam is the largest religion. Where's the backlash in those countries?
  17. orangeblueorangeblue
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    orangeblueorangeblue Well-Known Member

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    I don't think so. It was a big story in this country. 24% of Americans belong to the Catholic Church. What % of the .6% of Muslim Americans are members of extremist groups?

    Again, conflating the smaller group with the whole. Why does this keep happening?
  18. oldgator
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    oldgator Premium Member

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    evidently you haven't read comments by many Christian posters on this board in regard to their attitudes regarding gays, blacks, other religions, other Christian denominations, education, women, etc, etc in terms of intolerance and oppression and even occasional violence.

    bottom line...at this point in time---there is certainly more violence committed in the name of religion by Muslims. However , if you look at GWB and many other GOP Christian types who wanted the U.S. to wage a 'holy war' against Islam in general you would see that Christians are still fully capable and desiring of religious killing as Muslims.

    I am not defending Islam. I am merely pointing out that many Christians(especially on this message board) ,Jews, etc aren't as pure as they like to claim.
  19. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    Well, the Egyptian military just outlawed the political party that held their presidency for subscribing to Saudi Wahhabism, does that count?

    It's a little tougher to be vocal against the extremist sect that your own government has instituted as the official state religion when that extremist sect can be used to endorse "purification" of the faith (read: considering other interpretations to be heresy or "shirk" of Islam) and has been given the force of law.

    You used Saudi Arabia as an example, so I'll go with that. The Saud family long ago adopted Wahhabism as the state religion (largely because it provided a theological justification for them to make war on other Muslims - originally the Ottomans). How, other than an overthrow of the Sauds, do you propose that Saudi Arabia speak out against Wahhabism? And of course if they did try to overthrow the Sauds, I'm sure we could expect handwringing from the US political class about why "moderate Muslims" supported a coup against one of our closest Arab allies.
  20. GT Gator
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    Nope.

    The backlash against the Catholic Church was not limited to its parishioners. The backlash was basically universal within the Christian faiths and the countries where the abuse occurred. While the non-Catholic Christians did understandingly distance themselves from Catholic church, they anything but pacifists. They non-Catholics demanded changes along side the laity of Catholic Church. There were no pacifists against the abuses.

    Pacifism against atrocities is a tacit acceptance of them.

    Until the majority of Muslims are actively hunting down the scumbags that do stuff like in the OP, they're tacitly accepting the violence.

    Until the majority of Muslims are significantly vocal and active (just as vocal as Christians were against the Catholic sexual abuse scandal) against Saudi Arabia (home of Mecca and Medina) and its abuses against women, homosexuals, and non-Muslims, then they're tacitly accepting it.

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