Stand your ground laws: A license to kill?

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by leogator, Jul 21, 2013.

  1. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Is the statement "criminals have gotten off..." In reference to them being criminal in the actual shooting, because... apparently not. Or just people with prior offenses?

    If the facts of the Zimmerman case in any way supported a theory of this wildly unlikely "contrived self-defense", I would think there might be some basis for this anxiety. As that isn't the case, it seems like it is just to stir up tension and confuse actually pretty straightforward law and public policy.
  2. gatornana
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    gatornana Administrator

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    What I meant by criminals are drug dealer, gang member and the like.

    The Zimmerman case shed a lot of light on FL SYG law. It's being discussed which is not such a bad thing....many didn't know one could provoke an altercation then shoot when only a perceived thread is made rather than try to exit the situation.
  3. reformedgator
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    reformedgator Premium Member

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    Cops have to face that scenario all the time. A suspect reaches for what could be a weapon. What should the cop do?
  4. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Eh, I still disagree that the *case* raised anything. People contrived to talk about it be just referring to the case.

    As to the criminals... I would point out they have as much lawful right to self-defense as anyone else. Their prior bad acts are... their prior bad acts, there is a reason the laws of evidence are what they are.
  5. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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    MichaelJoeWilliamson Well-Known Member

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    There is a subtle but distinct difference between self defense and SYG. Zimmerman pleaded self defense, as he was not able to retreat. SYG gets to the ability to retreat.
  6. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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    MichaelJoeWilliamson Well-Known Member

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    Interesting

    http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/16/b...and-your-ground-law-at-disproportionate-rate/
  7. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    I still don't see how a duty to retreat would have made a difference on the self-defense issue in any jurisdiction. The man was pinned to the ground. That is going to be the common law "wall" in any reasonable jurisdiction that follows it.
  8. 108
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    fixed it
  9. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Remind me to post that meme of the guys from "Office Space" beating a horse instead of the office printer. IOU one sardonic dead horse meme.
  10. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    That's a sort of silly complaint. If you opt out of the SYG hearing the Defense doesn't have to prove anything at all, just keep the State from proving beyond a reasonable doubt that it wasn't self-defense. And that's been the case in FL long before SYG and is the case in 49 states.

    All that aspect of SYG did is allow you to avoid a trial that you were already legally guaranteed to win because of the differing burdens (i.e., if you can prove that it more likely than not was self-defense, that automatically precludes the State from being able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it wasn't) if you can reach a higher threshold of proof.
  11. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    That's not really accurate. If you legally provoked the altercation and the other combatant responds with disproportionate force putting you in a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm, you have a duty to exhaust all other available means, be unable to retreat, and have the use of deadly force be the only available means to address a threat. The initial aggressor statute in FL explicitly says so.

    (Of course you also have the issue of the Gibbs case holding that "provoking the use of force" against yourself within the meaning of that statute only occurs if you initiated the altercation through the use of force or the threatened use of force, so insulting someone and them responding by beating you up wouldn't qualify as you being the initial aggressor.)
  12. Gatorrick22
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    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

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    Not a license to kill... no.

    It's a license to live!
  13. HallGator
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    That was what I had always understood before talking to the cop. What he told me really went against what I had always heard. I always figured to put a knife in their hand after shooting them.
  14. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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    MichaelJoeWilliamson Well-Known Member

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    Precisely the point.
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  15. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Short version is that, on its face, a rise of justifiable homicides isn't a bad thing -- when you consider that each one is presumptively now an alternative to a felony crime of some sort and either a dead victim or someone needing victim counseling after their very close call from which they might have escaped.

    As far as I can tell, the only instance anybody could pick (not including crime fiction) where someone attempting to contrive a self-defense covered homicide was that yahoo in... Texas, I think? Who taped himself talking about being in fear for my life. And as examples go, that doesn't do much to demonstrate how it is a perfect, let alone a plausible, crime.
  16. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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    MichaelJoeWilliamson Well-Known Member

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    No. The forensic evidence was unequivocal. The eyewitness accounts was unequivocal. Zimmerman was on the ground getting the crap beat out of him.

    What is it with you guys and your alternate universes?
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  17. sneakygator
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    sneakygator Well-Known Member

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    So if I do the math correctly...28.8 innocent people saved their own lives and eliminated 28.8 punks.
    I don't see a problem with that.
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  18. Gatorrick22
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    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

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    Rep.
  19. gatornana
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    I apologize for misunderstandings.....there's a lot of info out there that is confusing. Here's a link that talks about the various interpretations of SYG throughout Florida.

    http://www.tampabay.com/news/public...s-some-shocking-outcomes-depending-on/1233133
  20. helix139
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    helix139 Premium Member

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    Here are the actual statutes concerning SYG and castle doctrine. SYG is section (3)

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