Stand your ground laws: A license to kill?

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by leogator, Jul 21, 2013.

  1. leogator
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    leogator Active Member

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    Since the law was enacted, justifiable homicides in Florida have risen from an annual average of 13.2 between 2001 and 2005 to an average of 42 between 2006 and 2012, including a record 66 in 2012, according to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. FBI data have shown similar increases in some states that enacted similar laws, such as Texas, while others haven't seen an uptick.

    http://news.yahoo.com/despite-outcry-stand-ground-law-repeals-unlikely-154400836.html
  2. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Justifiable homicides... are justifiable. Is there any accompanying data to suggest that any portion of these were illegitimate applications of the use of force statute? Or is the entire question predicated on just assuming that since stand your ground/no duty to retreat is WrongBad, that any indications that it is helping people effectively defend themselves are also WrongBad too?
  3. The_Graygator
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    The_Graygator Well-Known Member

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    i.e., criminals who try to victimize innocent people who are armed are being killed.

    Not saying that's the case every, single time as there are instances where it's not justified, but overall, they're up because criminals choose the wrong people to screw with.

    And lets understand one more thing, this sudden craze against SYG? That law was not even used in the Zimmerman trial.
  4. Matthanuf06
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    Matthanuf06 New Member

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    Well this is a great thing. Hopefully this will begin to deter crime as now criminals know they may get killed for their behavior.
  5. Lawdog88
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    So are the decedents victims of racial profiling and stand your ground hunting ?
  6. HallGator
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    While I can see where SYG could be misused I am more in line with it giving a citizen the right to defend himself, his family, and others if necessary. The last thing I want to do is shoot and kill someone but at the same time I want to know that I don't have to worry about using force should it become necessary in order to save my own life or the lives of my family.
  7. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    This misuse of SYG thing is... outlandish, to say the least. See, it all stems from the following assumption -- "George Zimmerman hunted down Trayvon like a rabid dog, and was acquitted, therefore this statute can be used as pretext for murder". The initial false assertion is what ruins it. See, because unlike the Zimmerman case, where the forensics all ultimately broke in his favor (and probably for the reason of it being the truth), an actual person trying to kill someone under the pretext of self-defense is going to almost certainly not get the same benefit.

    It makes a fine basis for paranoia. And I guarantee it will make some screenwriter money for turning the thing into a polemic and predictable crime thriller of some kind (or an SVU episode). But that's about as far as it goes.
  8. BobK89
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    BobK89 Well-Known Member

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    How many of those crim defendants who invoked SYG were scumbags accused of killing other scumbags? My guess is more often than not.

    Sent from my iPhone using GatorCountry
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    can't you do that without SYG? Self-Defense

    it seems to me that SYG allows you not even to attempt to defuse a situation

    to use deadly force simply based on perceived threat, whether that threat is real or imagined
  10. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    You are mistaken. Even in the instructions in the Zimmerman's case, the defense is premised upon a reasonable belief that there was no other choice but to fire. The difference between a duty to retreat and no duty to retreat jurisdiction is whether you have to risk retreat before you can use force, not in whether or not you can go zero-to-glock in 4.7 seconds in any given confrontation.

    What's also continually glossed over is that Zimmerman could have fired even in a duty to retreat jurisdiction based on the evidence that immediately prior to firing he was pinned to the ground. That satisfied the duty everywhere one is applied. It's a duty to reasonable efforts to retreat, not an absolute duty of retreat over safety.
  11. HallGator
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    SYG cleared up a lot of inconsistencies with the law as to when you could use deadly force. Years ago in Gainesville I was told by a cop that if someone broke into the house to steal something you couldn't just shoot them but actually had to go out the back door if possible. This is BS to the max in my book. When someone forcibly enters into my home I consider that putting my life and anyone else who may be in the house lives in jeopardy. The good thing is now that extends to my property and my right to occupy a spot outside of my property is I am obeying the law.
  12. HallGator
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    Of course that does not mean a person should not use common sense to try and extract themselves from a situation when possible rather than just start shooting.
  13. helix139
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    Florida is a castle doctrine state and has been since long prior to the implementation of SYG. There is no duty to retreat within your own home if someone forcibly enters, as it is assumed that person has ill intent and thus the legal presumption is a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm whether or not the attacker is armed.

    SYG simply added a provision that there is no duty to retreat in the public domain.
  14. helix139
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  15. HallGator
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    I was told what I posted somewhere around the mid seventies. Don't know if the cop knew what he was talking about but those were his words. When I said that was crazy he agreed but still said it was the law. As I said there seemed to have been inconsistencies with the interpretation of the laws and with SYG it is more straightforward.
  16. helix139
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    Castle doctrine was passed into florida law in 05, so the cop was correct in the 70s.
  17. leogator
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    leogator Active Member

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    Just hypothothetical. One Florida Gator and one Seminole started arguing about who's going to win the Florida FSU game. The Gator guy started insulting Bowden and particularly his wife, Ann. The Seminole guy got really mad and started threatening the Gator guy, and the they started shoving each other. Suddenly the Seminole reached into his pocket. The Gator thought he's pulling a gun, pulled his and shot the Seminole guy dead. Alas he was just reaching for his phone. It was his wife asking why he was late for dinner. Now everybody else present thought he was reaching for his gun and ducked. The Gator really throught his life was in danger and invoked his SYG rights. The bad thing was the Seminole was not carrying. Discuss!!!
  18. Lawdog88
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    Consistent with that, Hall, as a teenager I remember it being part of common-man understanding that if someone was breaking into your house and you shot them, make certain that you drug the body into the house.

    That's how everyday, working-class people where I came from understood the "law."
  19. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Would a reasonably cautious or prudent person in the same circumstances have feared they were in danger of death or serious bodily harm, i.e. he was going for a gun? Sounds like a very borderline hypothetical in terms of the reasonability requirement. The only argument here from an SYG standpoint is whether or not he would have had a duty to run and hide (if reasonable) before he could use force. But like any other self-defense statute, his belief in the danger must be a reasonable one as well.
  20. gatornana
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    and the shooter can be the one who provoked the altercation. In a SYG hearing, the defense only has to prove their claim by a preponderance of the evidence....the state, beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Many criminals have gotten off with this law....not exactly something one wants to hear.

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