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Solar inefficiency...

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by wygator, Apr 27, 2014.

  1. wygator
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    wygator Well-Known Member

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  2. corpgator
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    corpgator Well-Known Member

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    We need to find jobs somewhere since automation is taking so many away. Plus, coal is about as bad as you can get for creating energy. You are way way way more likely to get asthma as a child if you live near a coal power plant.
  3. RealGatorFan
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    Automation will take away all jobs eventually.
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  4. wygator
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    wygator Well-Known Member

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    If it's only a jobs program, that's pretty inefficient as well. Not against reducing coal use, but want us to do it in a way that makes sense both in energy productivity and for the environment.
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  5. DowntownGator
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    DowntownGator Well-Known Member

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    No. Ye shall spend money only on oil. Until oil runs out. No other option is reasonable. Until oil runs out.

    Resistance is futile.

    You will be assimilated.
  6. corpgator
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    corpgator Well-Known Member

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    We should be doing whatever it takes to close all coal plants considering what it does to humans even disregard all impact to the environment at large. It's just bad news. As for jobs, I imagine most of them are in R&D. Not much R&D going on for coal plants except take coal out of ground, burn coal.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...ms_children_and_worsens_asthma_and_heart.html

    http://www.lung.org/press-room/press-releases/power-plants-epa.html

    &etc.
  7. bakaduin
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    bakaduin Moderator

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    Efficiency is everything. If we destroy this planet with pollution it won't matter how efficient the energy was we will all be dead. The sooner we get off coal and oil the better.
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  8. gatorman_07732
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    gatorman_07732 Well-Known Member

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    Except solar is not a viable source of energy.
  9. wygator
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    wygator Well-Known Member

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    I posted this on the XL thread, but it seems appropriate here:

    U.S. taxpayers think they lost around $535 million in the Solyndra federal loan guarantee by the Department of Energy. But, in fact, the loss could be as high as $849 million, more than 50 percent higher. After Solyndra went bankrupt in August of 2011, the U.S. department of Energy approved a deal to attract more private investment to the company. Part of the deal was that the private creditors could write-off more than $350 million in taxes, making the total loss to American taxpayers for Solyndra as much as $849 million. Further, one of these private creditors is a company owned by a major donor to President Obama.

    Here's the list of green loans at risk...upwards of $7 billion. These companies have either gone bankrupt, laid off workers, or are heading for bankruptcy. Keep in mind that these are federal only. There may have been additional state and local loans:

    *Denotes companies that have filed for bankruptcy.

    1. Evergreen Solar ($25 million)*
    2. SpectraWatt ($500,000)*
    3. Solyndra ($535 million)*
    4. Beacon Power ($43 million)*
    5. Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
    6. SunPower ($1.2 billion)
    7. First Solar ($1.46 billion)
    8. Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
    9. EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)*
    10. Amonix ($5.9 million)
    11. Fisker Automotive ($529 million)
    12. Abound Solar ($400 million)*
    13. A123 Systems ($279 million)*
    14. Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($700,981)*
    15. Johnson Controls ($299 million)
    16. Schneider Electric ($86 million)
    17. Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
    18. ECOtality ($126.2 million)
    19. Raser Technologies ($33 million)*
    20. Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)*
    21. Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)*
    22. Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)*
    23. Range Fuels ($80 million)*
    24. Thompson River Power ($6.5 million)*
    25. Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)*
    26. Azure Dynamics ($5.4 million)*
    27. GreenVolts ($500,000)
    28. Vestas ($50 million)
    29. LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power ($151 million)
    30. Nordic Windpower ($16 million)*
    31. Navistar ($39 million)
    32. Satcon ($3 million)*
    33. Konarka Technologies Inc. ($20 million)*
    34. Mascoma Corp. ($100 million)
    http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/2012/10/25/u-s-taxpayers-keep-losing-money-on-solyndra/
  10. wygator
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    wygator Well-Known Member

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    For the over $26 billion committed since 2009 (for renewable energy projects), DOE Section 1703 and 1705 loan guarantees have created only 2,298 permanent jobs – that’s $11.45 million per job.

    Pretty fat, even by government standards!!

    Detailed list at this link:

    http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/2013/05/08/does-11-million-jobs/
  11. corpgator
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    corpgator Well-Known Member

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    Why not? A 1000 years ago, oil wasn't thought to be either. It will never be able to power the whole world all the time because of the whole Earth rotation problem, but it can at least be a supplement.
  12. gatorman_07732
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    gatorman_07732 Well-Known Member

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    You need to look at the amount that has been invested and how much of the total energy is produced by solar. The amount of money is immense however the production is negligible to say the least.
  13. corpgator
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    corpgator Well-Known Member

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    I bet we could say the same about drilling for oil at first too or any other technology in its infancy.
  14. gatorman_07732
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    gatorman_07732 Well-Known Member

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    It was not subsidized and was at the risk of the private sector.
  15. Gatorrick22
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    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

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    I'm for the "all of the above" approach to energy usage, but we've seen our politicians blabber about that as an energy policy only to prove they lied just steal away more votes.
  16. umcpgator
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    It's not viable for now. Who knows where it will be with development. Just about every other source of energy is derived from solar, we just need to get better at tapping from the source. Falling behind in R&D for solar could be a game changer and who knows what other technologies will come out of solar.
  17. chemgator
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    chemgator Well-Known Member

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    Subsidizing solar is an idiot's way of burning money (or, in Obama's case, of paying off his political donors). The U.S. has exactly one mine that produces rare earth metals, required for producing solar power), and it has been shut down for years. China owns 95-97% of the world's production of RE metals. They have a monopoly on the most critical raw materials. Any other country would have to be led by a fool to try to compete with a country that owns all the raw materials. This is the equivalent of the U.S. saying that they have decided that they will make natural diamond production and export the cornerstone of it's economy, overlooking the fact that the U.S. does not have any major diamond mines (like South Africa). Or that we would use geothermal power for all of our power needs, even though we have almost no geothermal capability (like Iceland).

    We would have been far smarter to invest Obama's payola money in actual solar panels, bought from China, than we would investing in solar companies to make them in the U.S. That battle was lost a long time ago.
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  18. MichiGator2002
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    The customary means of replacing a technology is with a better technology, of which "more efficient" is a given. Enviro-Luddites insisting that modern technology is somehow antiquated and should be replaced by... windmills and sunbaking, eventually, are not interested in "efficient" or "better". If you wanted efficient and better, we'd have converted a great deal of our non-transportation energy infrastructure to nuclear power decades back -- except, again, enviro-Luddites on the attack.

    Alternately, technology advancement continues to push any sort of fossil fuel shortage over the horizon, because we are constantly improving how and from what and from where we can extract it, like frakking -- except, again, the enviro-Luddites.
  19. FoxGator
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    FoxGator Sly as a Fox Premium Member

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    It is naive to think that humans will stop burning coal. We should not close all coal plants! We should be doing whatever it takes to clean all coal plants. CO2 is not a problem, it's the other toxic by products of burning coal that is harmful to the environment. Fortunately, cleaning these other toxins is easier than sequestering CO2. This would be cheaper and have less economical impact than any carbon tax solution.
  20. gatorman_07732
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    gatorman_07732 Well-Known Member

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    R&D is fine, subsidizing all these companies that have went bankrupt is quite another. I understand from my education and career everything moves from R&D to technology and that is where the private sector takes over. If it's viable, trust me the private sector will be all over it.

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