So ya think Urban wasn't Foleys hire eh?

Discussion in 'RayGator's Swamp Gas' started by tilly, Nov 29, 2013.

  1. tilly
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    tilly Superhero Moderator VIP Member

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    I never said...claimed....or implied that.

    Read my post. I said he UPGRADED FACILITIES and oversaw PAY INCREASES that made Spurrier's job easier.
    I never claimed he brought Steve here. He played a roll in that decade. To say he didn't is to not understand the complexity of a major Athletic Department.
  2. GatorSean
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    GatorSean Well-Known Member

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    Which AD is good when it comes to football?

    The guy who hired Saban (but also hired Shula, Price, Franchonie, and DeBose)?
    The guy that hired Briles (but also hired Morris)?
    The guy that hired Malzhan (but also hired Chiznik)?
    The guy that hired Caroll (but also hired Hacket and Kiffen)?

    It's hard to find an AD at a top football program that hasn't made some bad hires over any significant period of time. Anyone that has ever had to hire people will tell you that hiring is not a science. It's closer to a crap shoot than anything.

    And while you're blaming him for keeping Muschamp, you give him no credit for dumping Zook mid-season, which at the time was an unprecedented and controversial move, but gave us a huge advantage on landing Meyer over Notre Dame.
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  3. tilly
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    tilly Superhero Moderator VIP Member

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    Again...reread my comments on the Spurrier years. NEVER said he hired him.

    Just curious. Who do you consider a good AD "for football"?
    Who has more titles under his tenure?

    These are questions that HAVE to be answered. If he is poor, than that must mean you are placing him up against some who are better.

    Who is that superstar AD that nails it with championship coaches every time?

    Not trying to be a jerk. I'm asking a serious question.
  4. tilly
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    tilly Superhero Moderator VIP Member

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    Also lets remember. That Foley could not control all of the TOP coaches NOT wanting to follow Spurrier.
    He was stuck with Zook as much as he chose him. BIG time coaches declined the opportunity to follow a legend.
    Some of that was out of JF's hands.

    All I know. Is he has overseen the winningest Football program in the nation. during his tenure. Not bad.
  5. RealGatorFan
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    Sounds like Donovan and his wife sealed the deal. I wonder if we got Meyer without them. At least Foley had the wherewithal to get them to speak with Meyer and his wife. Sometimes the best way to seal the deal is with the wife.
  6. jcorb3233
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    Think of it in terms of Wins Above Replacement. You can't credit Foley for the 96 Championship, since he inherited Spurrier. So what would have happened since 2002 (when Foley made his first Football HC hire)?

    Would another AD have brought in Zook? Probably not. The Zook hire would probably result in negative WAR (but hard to say).

    Would another AD have brought in Meyer? Absolutely. 0 WAR for Foley on the Meyer hire.

    Would another AD have brought in Muschamp? Maybe, but looking at the rest of the (historically) Elite SEC football programs in recent history, most (if not all) have hired HCs with previous HC experience (Bama, LSU, Auburn, Tennessee...even down to Arkansas, South Carolina, Ole Miss, and SEC-newbie Texas A&M), so it's not likely that an AD at a top-tier SEC school would hire a first-time HC, regardless of how highly-regarded he is.

    The bottom line is that the only sustained success Foley's hires have seen are under Meyer, which would contribute 0 WAR for Foley. The rest has been negative. He's tried 3 times to capture the lightning in the bottle he caught with the Billy Donovan hire, but it hasn't worked in football (it could have if Meyer's health didn't get in the way).
  7. SECund2nun
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    SECund2nun Well-Known Member

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    Other's mistakes don't make up for Foley's mistakes...especially since some keep repeating the myth that Foley is the best AD in the business so therefore he should be above the other ADs.

    Bama was a down program for quite a number of years. Not some hot program like UF has been since Foley inherited it in 1992. They were even on probation relatively recently. Bama's AD did what had to be done and fired Shula 2 years after his fluke 10-2 season. Foley is refusing to fire WM.

    Baylor is baylor. Not UF. No comparison. Baylor is a left over school.

    AU is not as attractive as UF (if UF and AU are open the coach is picking UF 95% of the time), but they did make a mistake on Chiznik (but at least they won a NC out there mistake we have not even won a sec title out of ours). But AU noticed the mistake and fired Chiznik 2 years after winning a NC and hired Malzahn as HC. Foley's ego is in the way and he apparently refusing to hire his mistake in WM.

    Foley does not even learn from his mistakes. Why he would ever hire another coach with no HC experience after Zook is beyond me...and why extend Zook??? 8 million dollar buyout for WM??
  8. SECund2nun
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    SECund2nun Well-Known Member

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    No way to paint it the other way....Foley made one of the worst hires in years with Zook. I have no idea what his logic was "I missed out on my 1st and 2nd choices, so let me just give up and hire a failed DC in Ron Zook". It was a massive failure..no way around it.
  9. tilly
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    tilly Superhero Moderator VIP Member

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    Well if Stoops and Tedford and Shanahan ...all say no...they might. No one wanted to follow Spurrier.

    Yet Even Notre Dame could ...not ...land ...him.
    Crappy AD's can want Urban Meyer. Great ones LAND him.
  10. SECund2nun
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    SECund2nun Well-Known Member

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    But you were attempting to give credit for the 90s to foley. Foley had nothing to do with it. He didn't hire Spurrier. Spurrier turned our program into a elite brand name and program. He generated tons of revenue for us.


    I don't extensively study other ADs. I just study our AD's actions and he is poor at football. 1 for 3 is bad plus other mistakes as well like extending Ron Zook.

    There is a difference between expecting 100% and 33% like Foley is plus other mistakes like extending Zook and refusing to fire WM after his terrible season.
  11. swampspring
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    swampspring Well-Known Member

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    Tilly, I had posted links to articles from around the same time stating the contrary and how involved Machen was in the process, but since gatorcountry's transition to the new site, I can't find it. I'll keep looking. I'm not saying I disagree, because I think overall Foley has been pretty fantastic, but I do think Machen and Foley were both integral to Meyer coming here, not either/or.
  12. medigatorx
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    "The fans ran off Spurrier and Meyer". Ooops - too late. Someone already argued it in this thread.
  13. GatorSean
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    GatorSean Well-Known Member

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    Bama won the National Championship in 92. Not that has anything to do with the question you can't answer. It's not about each school's athletic programs, it's the fact that no AD in the nation can promise to make homerun coaching hires 100% of the time. If there was an AD that could do that, I'd be in favor of him taking over for Foley. But you're standards are so unrealistic it's almost seems like sarcasm.

    Again, you give Bama and AU credit for firing coaches after short period but Foley doesn't get the same credit for firing Zook after an even shorter tenure? Don't you see the double standard you're applying?
  14. GatorSean
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    GatorSean Well-Known Member

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    It's just a ludicrous statement. Foley made Spurrier the highest paid HC in the nation in 94 and again in 96. But he had nothing to do with it? Foley kept Spurrier in Gainesville after the Bucs went after him hard, but he had nothing to do with it? Foley made massive upgrades to the stadium throughout the 90s, yet he had nothing to do with it?

    Without Foley, Spurier could have been in Tampa in 94, and then what do the 90s look like for us?
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  15. g8rvet
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    g8rvet Active Member

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    Well said Sean. He has an agenda and nothing anyone says will change his mind. It is pointless to even try. His opinion is set in stone. All that think JF is one of the tops in the business can take solace in knowing that most of the nation agre with them.
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  16. JerseyGator01
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    The Gator sports program was already elite even before Spurrier got here. Spurrier just made us elite in football.
  17. KronoGator
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    KronoGator Well-Known Member

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    That's where the Magic went wrong :D
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  18. gatordavisl
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    gatordavisl Well-Known Member

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    These efforts are appreciated Sean. You get it. It's really surprising that some don't seem to realize there is so much more to being an AD than hiring the football coach. Maybe some folks are so out for blood that they can't help but direct their negative energy w/o a sense of rationality. I've read some who actually think Foley gets no credit for the 90s. What the hell does that even mean? Was he not working at UF that decade? There were so many sports successes that can be attributed to Foley during that decade, but some will hitch their wagon to two questionable football hires. Did Foley have nothing to do with hiring Bob Stoops? "Oh that was Spurrier," says poster w/o a clue. It will go on and on, but I guess there's no sense in arguing with those who lack it.
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  19. gtr2x
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    That's funny because I keep reading in these forums from a couple of posters that SOS gets a total pass from the fans and is overrated as a coach.

    As for the AD argument, no doubt Foley is open to criticism with his football hires, but there is a lot more to being AD than hiring football coaches. Look at the rest of the program, top 5 in the country most every year. NCAA championships in multiple sports. Its absurd that he doesn't get credit for the programs successes, just the failures.
  20. siennagator
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    Foley is easily the best AD in college athletics. There is no argument to be made about it. Nobody has a crystal ball on how coaches will work out....except some of our all seeing Gator Country posters.

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