should NCAA drop all requirements regarding amateur status,etc?

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by oldgator, Aug 5, 2013.

  1. CHFG8R
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    CHFG8R Premium Member

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    The MLB system works fine and is completely fair for all parties. Under that system the athlete has 3 opportunities to turn pro between HS and college graduation. What could be more fair than that?
  2. Row6
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    Row6 New Member

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    Except that the pros by definition are greedy bastards, existing to make money. What's the NCAA's excuse?
  3. CHFG8R
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    CHFG8R Premium Member

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    Why does it need an excuse. They are non profits who, in many cases (see UF as prime example) actually creates revenue for the general fund. Want to put a cap on Coach and AD salaries, fine. Problem solved. These are the only ones I see getting rich (if you call it that as it pales to NFL owner rich) off the system. The net revenues in the NCAA, provided there are net revenues, go back into the system to pay for things like women's scholarships, stadiums/improvements, etc.

    I'm glad you posted what you posted as it's one of the major fallacies of this argument.
  4. CHFG8R
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    CHFG8R Premium Member

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    Not necessarily, as these guys might attest to (Just off the top of my head: Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, David Price, Buster Posey, Evan Longoria, J.D. Drew. . . . and so many more great players), . The difference, they would be here because they want and chose to be here, not because there is no other alternative if they want to play pro ball.
  5. tegator80
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    tegator80 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, for the individual. I was talking about the team's overall quality. Kentucky basketball wouldn't be the same even though a Tayshaun Prince may come along once in a while.
  6. CHFG8R
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    CHFG8R Premium Member

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    As I see it, they are the only team in the NCAA that benefits from the one-and-done rule, presumably because they have modeled their program around it. Talk about cynical opportunism?
  7. Row6
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    Row6 New Member

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    As I stated up thread, I am agnostic on paying players as long as coaches and others enriching themselves on the current system - and they aren't the only ones - have to play by rules more in line with the concept of amateur athletics. In fact there is an entire industry built on amateur collegiate athletics. Because some of what is left over - if anything in the case of some schools - goes to the library doesn't hide this fact.

    BTW, BD would not make that much more in the NBA.
  8. CHFG8R
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    CHFG8R Premium Member

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    Professional Minor League system solves all of this. Again, see MLB and NHL. There is precedent for doing it the right way.

    Why should the NCAA and its member institutions change the way they've done business for over 100 years just because the NFL is to cheap to invest in a minor league?
  9. CHFG8R
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    CHFG8R Premium Member

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    And there is nobody in the NCAA world that makes as much as an NFL owner. Not even close.
  10. oldgator
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    oldgator Premium Member

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    thee is the claim by college athletes, former players, media, etc that college palyers should get a piece of the pie because they bring money into the universities. I brought up the example of medical profession majors as well as students doing research in college labs as examples of other college students who bring money into universites but who don't get money for it. In fact med profession majors etc pay to do clinical hours in university hospitals. And that in terms of total money a university either has coming into it or the university saves by having students do clinical hours in their hospitals may bring about the same or more cumulatively nationally than the money brought into universities by college athletes.

    some other questions
    ---is the problem for some college athletes more a problem of them not getting money or that they are so out of touch that they spend money faster than they get it(no matter how much money they get).

    I being this up because the bankruptcy rate(or other serious financial trouble) is higher for 1st round NFL picks than for players who are drafted in later rounds or sign as free agents. 1st rounders get more money than the guys in later rounds but have higher rate of financial troubles....hmmm---seems the issue for many isn't money but themselves.
  11. CHFG8R
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    Maybe the NCAA could implement rules that screw the NFL and NBA. For instance, as long as you don't take money from an agent, you are free to come back (and, by all means, use that fact as leverage to get more money from the pros).
  12. AzCatFan
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    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

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    Paying players is problematic. First, is payment uniform throughout a team? Should the star D-lineman getting pushed around by 300 pounders for 50+ plays a game get the same stipend as the 3rd string, back-up QB who isn't even in for 50 plays during an entire season?

    And then there's the non-revenue athlete. A gymnast as a high probability of getting injured, but she has very little chance of turning pro in gymnastics. But is her hard work and sweat worth less because her performance isn't on network tv and her team doesn't bring in millions?

    MLB and NHL do it right, but they have some built-in advantages. The biggest one being their minor league system was developed before college athletics became so big. I believe the NBA, with their D-League is at least attempting to do it right. But remember, professional sports is a business, and businesses exist to make money. While a minor league baseball or hockey team has a change to be profitable, I'm not sure about the D-league teams. And football? That's another story altogether.

    No outdoor football league has ever been successful since the NFL merger. The Arena league has been around for a while, but it's has serious financial problems through the year. A huge part of the problem is competition. Whereas a minor league hockey team will play 30+ home games, and minor league baseball, 60+, you are looking at 8 home games for minor league football. And when do you play the games? Can't play Sunday, that's NFL time. Saturday is for college, and Friday night has high school lights. Maybe you can play Thursday nights? But good luck drawing a good crowd.

    The other issue is playing concurrent with the major leagues. You can play baseball 6+ times a week, and the system is set up so that a player can be called up and playing in the show the next day. There is also the expanded roster period in MLB that allows teams to call up a few prospects and give the prospects a chance to prove themselves. Football, on the other hand, can only be played once a week. And if the minor league plays Thursday, little chance a player will be called up and ready to contribute only a few days later. The best football can do is a summer league. But just ask the USFL, the European League, and the XFL how easy that is.

    The conclusion is no, players shouldn't be paid. And football has several unique challenges to a creation of a full fledged minor league. In the end, the system we have has some major flaws, but it's probably the best system out there.
  13. CHFG8R
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    I've actually given this some thought. Expand scout teams to 50+ and play games on Tuesday nights. A major reason those other leagues fail IMO is because they demand the fan develop new loyalties instead of playing on existing loyalties. If it was your teams minor team then there is built in interest in that you are watching your teams future players.

    There are certainly ways to make it work. Partnerships like MLB does with its affiliates, business models that work with cheap tickets, etc.

    But why try when you already get it for free and can avoid any blame when this issue comes up.
  14. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    Blow it up. If there is no more college football or athletics after, I can live with it. Really this should have happened like 80 years ago, like in Europe where they transitioned into club sports. Amatuerism is a nice idea, but there is so much money in it now, that is impossibly corrupt.
  15. Gatorrick22
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    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

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    This would be the end of college football and other college sports as we know it. Bad idea!

    Worse still... this is a lawyers dream come true - more ways to steal money from those that would be earning it playing sports.

    This is a bad idea. The system's not broken, the lawyers think this is another way to generate free money for themselves... for just reading words on a piece of paper called a contract.
  16. AzCatFan
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    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

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    The finances are still a problem. Any NFL D-league would be a money loser. How much could you charge per ticket? How many fans can a team get in average attendance? And how much would it cost to carry an additional 40+ players on a scout team and have them travel to away D-league games?

    That's not to say it can't be done, but it would have be a NFL D-league, completely subsidized by the NFL. In short, it would be a money loser. Instead, the NFL is happy to have college football act as the developmental league, and in doing so, the NFL agrees to leave Saturdays alone.
  17. CHFG8R
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    CHFG8R Premium Member

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    Maybe, maybe not. You think there would be demand (both for affordable, say, $10-20 Tickets and TV rights) for the Harrisburg Steelers vs. the Lakeland Bucs on a Tuesday night? Maybe I'm crazy, but I think you could sell that. Hell you could play the games at the home stadium for $10 GA and, IMO, pay for much of it with TV rights.

    The key is affiliation and not shoulder patches (WLAF). This would be your Minor League team, your guys, your team's future. Given the hardons so many have for recruiting and the draft, I think there is definitely a market here. Tuesday games allow for the potential (however rare) of call ups. Hell, you could start the season in July to allow for late-season call ups.

    Also, you would probably want to do partnerships like MLB and MiLB. For instance, the Charlotte (FL) Rays (High A) are actually owned, I believe, by Cal Ripkin's group which owns several MiLB affiliates. The Rays pay a large portion of the salary (some are paid by the MiLB owner) and I believe built the facility. Not sure of the exact details, but it seems to work.

    Not to mention there are so many benefits in the long run. Players are even more ready and prepared to run the franchise's system. The workouts can be tailored to what the NFL teams are looking for (thus, no more bitching about spread offenses not preparing for NFL). No need to rush the 1st Round draft pick. Work him in and make sure he's truly ready (and you can still milk the attention by televising his Minor League games. Maybe he comes up late in the season and really gives the franchise a positive push). So many positives if one is willing to make the investment.

    And college, IMO, loses nothing. Some of the best MLB players of all time have come from college and they were there by choice not because there were no other alternatives.


    A little off topic, but below are the MLB rules governing the draft. I find the contrast with NFL and NBA (and NCAA) rules rather stark.

    This is completely weighted in the player's favor. No need to declare eligibility for the draft and sign away your eligibility for college. You don't like the team or the deal, you can go back (or just go if you're in HS) to college and enter the draft the next year.

    That said, why does the NCAA have rules in place for football and basketball for the benefit of the NFL and NBA? Who cares if they burn a draft pick on a Jr. who decides to come back. Not our problem.
  18. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    I think you would need a tiered system, with promotion/relegation. We're getting into the highly improbable, but if every team had the potential to rise to the top, rather than stay low-level forever, there would be more interest. Of course, the monopoly of the NFL would never allow such a system, moreover, none of the current teams would accept the possibility of demotion either.
  19. CHFG8R
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    I disagree. How would my system not work? Let's just say it's expanded scout team. Also, we would expand the draft. In theory, approx. 1/2 the Minor League's salary is paid at NFL rates as drafted players would be NFL contracts while the other 1/2 are signed to low-cost minor-league contracts (or any percentage the NFL wants). GA, $10/Game at home stadiums. Season starts on July 1 (a chance to see the rookies early) and ends in October (chance for standouts to help big league team). Games played on Tuesday nights. I think you start with local affiliates/Sun, etc. and perhaps shoot for national TV deal, but I think there would be interest. With all the new sports networks and local networks, I can't believe they would have anything better to show on a Tuesday. And, frankly, I'd watch.

    Hell, we'd have a full slate of games tomorrow night.
  20. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    I would never say it absolutely wouldnt work, but most of the big clubs in Europe or around the world have B teams, reserve squads and youth teams that play competitive games on weekdays or whenever. Some of them even play in actual leagues with "real" non-reserve teams, though they can never reach the same division as the A team. Long story short, they rarely draw anything close to the top level attendance and they are usually money losers (but good for developing talent). Many teams won't field reserve squads to save money, in fact. People want to see the best, or at least imagine the possibility that their team could compete with the best, IMO. I think your idea could work in practice, but it would be basically be a money-loser subsidized by profits from the main product.


    I guess the question is do people have an endless appetite for football, or are they just drawn to the top competition in any sport? I would posit the latter.

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