"Settled Science" ... Maybe Not!

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by FoxGator, May 5, 2014.

  1. Dreamliner

    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    Let's cut the charade. We both know that your godfather was attributing (heavier than him) to gluttony. Or did I completely miss the plot and he was just giving a biochemistry lesson (that had you slapping your forehead) and just happened to use heavier people than him as an example ?
  2. Dreamliner

    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    Glutton - someone coming off a diet. :D
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  3. 92gator

    92gator Well-Known Member

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    No--his point was that he always heard fat people complain about being fat as if it were some curse from on high, when the solution to their fatness was right there under their noses.

    If they stopped eating so much, they wouldn't be so fat.

    It's not like you see fat people who actually don't eat more than they expend calories. But you do hear fat people complaining about being overweight.

    That was his point. At least that's what I understood it to be.
  4. 92gator

    92gator Well-Known Member

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    ^^^I've lost count of how many times I've heard a fat person bemoaning his/her fatness...as they plodded their way through some fattening indulgence, or other (...as I heard my godfather's quote replayed in my head...).
  5. Dreamliner

    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    Sheer bigotry. Myriad researchers, using a variety of methodologies, have failed to find any meaningful or replicable differences in the caloric intake or eating patterns of the obese compared to the non-obese to explain obesity.
  6. 92gator

    92gator Well-Known Member

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    So says your mythical...'er, myriad researchers.

    My godfather proclaimed it; I laughed (it was afterall just a throwaway line after several drinks)...but did put it to the test for over a decade, and have yet to see it dis-proven. Maybe your observations/experiences have been different; I'm just telling you my observations.

    NOTE: that's not to say there aren't folks blessed with turbo charged metabolism that metabolize calories much more efficiently than others--but, in my observations, I have yet to observe an obese person, who doesn't like to eat a lot.

    It isn't bigotry when its grounded in truth, put to the test, and confirmed repeatedly, without exception.

    Like I said--I'm still waiting--still holding out hope--to find that exception. That fat guy who eats like a rabbit, but is still morbidly obese.

    When I meet him/her...I'll own that I have found THE exception.

    I simply have not.

    ....but hey....maybe it is just me (and my Godfather).
  7. Dreamliner

    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    Your bigotry and titanic ignorance is NOT "confirmed repeatedly, without exception." It hasn't been confirmed at all! It's just been passed down!
  8. wygator

    wygator Well-Known Member

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    How about 1 such link?
  9. wygator

    wygator Well-Known Member

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    Twinkie Guy — also known as Mark Haub, a professor of human nutrition at Kansas State University — is the genius who lost 27 pounds in 10 weeks subsisting almost exclusively on Twinkies, Doritos, Oreos and other treats by ensuring that he consumed fewer calories than he burned. Stop the presses.

    Many express surprise that you can lose weight eating junk food, which is why Haub's story made international headlines. This air of mystery is partly due to diet "gurus" who claim weight loss involves something other than calories in versus calories out.

    But it doesn't. The first law of thermodynamics (FLoT) proves that caloric deficits are all that matter for weight loss. FLoT is an expression of the conservation of energy, stating that it can neither be created nor destroyed. A calorie is just a unit of energy.

    Note that FLoT is not a hypothesis or a theory, but a physical law, like gravity. It can't be disputed any more than the fact that if you jump out of an airplane without a parachute, gravity will not be your friend.

    So weight loss is simple math — why is this big news? According to Dr. Yoni Freedhoff, an obesity specialist at the Bariatric Medical Institute in Ottawa, Canada, Haub's diet made headlines the world over "because it hammers home one incredibly unfortunate fact — the world doesn't understand calories."

    The additional surprise in this study was that all his bloodwork and vitals improved as well, even though the nutritional value of the diet was...questionable.

    http://articles.latimes.com/2010/dec/06/health/la-he-fitness-twinkie-diet-20101206
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  10. Dreamliner

    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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  11. 92gator

    92gator Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I skimmed half-way through, waiting for the part about how they supposedly gained weight. Here's as far as I got:


    ...and further down....


    ^^^where's the study that shows that when one consumes less calories than (s)he expends, (s)he gains weight?

    (NOTE: I know you some can appear to consume more than they expend, and still lose--due to high metabolism; but that's a completely different issue).
  12. Dreamliner

    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    Yes, when you reduce calories you may lose weight. And when you increase calories you may gain weight. D'uh! Godfather!
  13. wygator

    wygator Well-Known Member

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    I read it...it proves that a diet restricted in calories causes you to lose weight. It did talk about the study participants regaining weight when they went, basically, on an unrestricted diet, but it sounds like they each ate according to their own interest rather than according to any measured plan.
  14. Dreamliner

    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but there is something HUGE that you and 92 are missing. To wit: why should people lose weight when we DO NOT KNOW that their weight is harmful for them and when we KNOW that they're just going to gain the weight back anyway ?
  15. wcj786

    wcj786 VIP Member

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    Wait a minute. I am not eating any more now than I did when I was 20, yet when I was 20, I was at 215 lbs and couldn't gain weight. Now, I eat less than then, yet have gained an additional 135 lbs.

    I used to eat in the neighborhood of 10,000 calories a day and now eat about 3000. Of course, when I ate 10,000 calories a day, I also was practicing football or baseball in college 3-4 hours a day, but now sit on what many call my brains for 12 hours a day at work, then another 12 at home. But, that's the only difference. Not a big deal, going from a college WR/pitcher to a couch potato. I don't understand why I gained any weight.










    Needless to say, I am being sarcastic with my comments.
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  16. wcj786

    wcj786 VIP Member

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    I'll answer this one. Because when I, personally, am at a lower weight, I both feel better, have more energy, and have more respect for myself. I also did not know I would gain my weight back, as I went from 325, down to 260, then back up to 350.

    There were two reasons I gained the weight back. First, I went back to a job that I worked 12 hour days, 6 days a week, so did not exercise as much. (I still work at that job.) Second, my caloric intake almost doubled, as I was staying around 1800-2000 calories when losing weight, but due to the location and scarcity of foods where I am now, I consume 3000+ calories a day now.

    Whether the actual weight causes a person health issues, the loss of excessive weight will provide a person more energy and make them feel better. It will almost always also increase their self confidence.
  17. 92gator

    92gator Well-Known Member

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    I don't know about WY, but I certainly never said, or even suggested that they (or anyone) should lose the weight.

    Again, my only point was to share an 'observation' that I've found to hold up.

    Look, I know lot's of fat people. Quite a few own their fatness and wear it with pride. Others bemoan it constantly. Some sweat profusely. Others can't seem to muster more than a mild perspiration.
    Some exercise regularly; others (most) hardly exercise at all. Some are pretty mobile and athletic; others... not so much. Some are pleasant...others, not so much...

    But you know what every single one of them has in common? Without exception, they all like to EAT. And eat A LOT. And they all have a profound appreciation for carby, fatty foods--like pizza, pasta, chocolate, candy, and such.

    That's the observation my Godfather shared with me; that's what I 'tested' (which really just means I happen to pay a little more attention to fat people when they eat, or talk about eating--waiting, seeking, searching for that one exception). I've found, per my own experience and observation, that it has held up--without exception (note: I'm only referring to my own personal experience, here--not as a universal rule; let those that read this put it to the test in their own lives, if they're so inclined--it's not like I have more than a passing interest in the matter; my Godfather mentioned it, and it basically stuck with me).

    I'll leave you with another little nugget of wisdom from another elder from my youth:

    Nunca des explicaciones--tus amigos no las necesitan, y tus enemigos no las creerán

    Translation: Never explain yourself ...your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe it.

    [Edit]: It appears that last one was originally form Oscar Wilde; I just happened to hear it in Spanish first. C'est la vie.

    FWIW.
  18. gator421

    gator421 Premium Member

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    What do you eat that makes you act like a Jackass?
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  19. Dreamliner

    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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  20. Dreamliner

    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    Suit yourself. I don't have any idea what your setpoint might be. We do know that 95-98% of people who lose weight gain it back. We know that the majority of dieters end up even heavier than when they began. And we also know that chronic dieting is the best predictor of future weight gain.

    At some point I would hope that heavy people would take the usual questions off the table, the ones that stem from social pressure to be thin, and ask new ones like, "I wonder if I could just take weight off the table and feel better if I were more active ?" and "What if I lost a little weight in the process ... and so what if I didn't but still felt better ?"

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