Separation of Church and State

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by wgbgator, Jun 14, 2013.

  1. wgbgator
    Offline

    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2007
    Messages:
    23,153
    Likes Received:
    405
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Orlando, FL
    Ratings Received:
    +1,698
    Here's a good reason the "oh, its no big deal" argument rather than a very rigid seperation can sometimes lead to stupidity by interested parties.

    http://www.salon.com/2013/06/14/atheists_just_as_obnoxious_as_christians/


    And:

  2. JerseyGator01
    Offline

    JerseyGator01 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2007
    Messages:
    15,194
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +628
    If we truly separated chuch and state, then the religious mullahs that lead Planned Parenthood and say a fetus is just a blob of tissue wouldn't dominate the discussion in "health" classes in public schools around the country.
  3. icequeen
    Offline

    icequeen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2013
    Messages:
    4,889
    Likes Received:
    2,123
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    Ratings Received:
    +3,519
    Should they be allowed to hand them out in a public school? No. I can think of better uses of taxpayer money and time. But if a kid wants to bring it to school for open reading (which they're allowed to bring anything they want that isn't porn to read) then that kid should not have it taken away, either. Because that is the KID'S choice to bring for their reading and their personal use at a point where they are allowed to make their own choice.
  4. shelbygt350
    Offline

    shelbygt350 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    5,553
    Likes Received:
    200
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +756
    Funny how a Bible is "religion" but Darwin's Origin of Species is not. Neither are other books that promote secularism, sorcerey, Godless behavior and such

    The Govt has been promoting a State Religion for decades
    • Like Like x 2
  5. QGator2414
    Offline

    QGator2414 VIP Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Messages:
    12,796
    Likes Received:
    155
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Ocala
    Ratings Received:
    +573
    Rep!

    Absolutely fantastic assesment...
  6. Gatorrick22
    Offline

    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    33,086
    Likes Received:
    2,520
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings Received:
    +4,572
    What does handing out Bibles have to do with writing laws that are religious based? Or basing laws on religious tenants. Although, like Ice said, it's a waste of taxpayer money... if that's who payed for them.
  7. Gatorrick22
    Offline

    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    33,086
    Likes Received:
    2,520
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings Received:
    +4,572
    Great point.
  8. AzCatFan
    Offline

    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    7,602
    Likes Received:
    204
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +624
    The Bible is religion because it is the holy book for one of the world's major religions. Darwin's Origin of Species is a science book dealing with how different species came to be. It has spawned no religion, nor are there churches/holy places where people pray to the book. And unlike holy books, Origin of Species isn't accepted as the unequivocal truth and Origin of Species can be disproven with further evidence.

    As for books promoting secularism, please point to one that specifically says everyone should be secular humanists. Then point out said book being used and/or passed out by schools.

    I assume you are saying schools are promoting sorcery by allowing books like Harry Potter. These books aren't religious tomes (although to some, they are), but rather fantasy. It would be akin to people saying that Star Wars promotes interstellar war, and all books about Star Wars be banned. Now, like Star Wars, people dive too deep into fantasy, but for the majority, a little escape into fantasy is a good thing. It sparks the imagination and can be a lot of fun.

    I agree with icequeen here. Schools shouldn't allow religious groups to hand out books for free. Same goes for secular humanist groups handing out books that put religion in a bad light. But if a student wants to bring a Bible or any other age-appropriate book to school, I'm all for it.
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Gatorrick22
    Offline

    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    33,086
    Likes Received:
    2,520
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings Received:
    +4,572
    How do you know Darwin didn't prove that GOD works differently than is told in the Bible?
  10. fastsix
    Offline

    fastsix Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2007
    Messages:
    6,478
    Likes Received:
    243
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Seattle
    Ratings Received:
    +1,094
    Why are you so sure it's attack on Christianity? Maybe Darwin was trying to disprove Hinduism, or any other religion that purports to describe how man came about. Or maybe, he was just trying to put forth a scientific theory of evolution and wasn't particularly worried about what any one religion said.
    • Like Like x 1
  11. AzCatFan
    Offline

    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    7,602
    Likes Received:
    204
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +624
    That's for theologians to discuss. Science and the scientific method doesn't deal with the existence or lack of existence of a deity and/or the supernatural. It's impossible to hypothesize, experiment, observe, test, and repeat for the existence of God. Darwin's book dealt with biology and biology only, and was never meant to be a holy/unholy book to worship.
  12. Gatorrick22
    Offline

    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    33,086
    Likes Received:
    2,520
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings Received:
    +4,572
    Just role-playing. :grin:
  13. GatorRade
    Offline

    GatorRade Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    6,957
    Likes Received:
    236
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +771
    Are you really asking why On the Origin of Species is allowed in schools, when the Bible is not? That's like asking why the Quran isn't allowed when Calculus textbooks are. On the Origin of Species isn't a "religious" book. It's about bird beaks. And bones. And reproduction. And geology. It's really pretty boring compared to any religious text I know.
  14. QGator2414
    Offline

    QGator2414 VIP Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Messages:
    12,796
    Likes Received:
    155
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Ocala
    Ratings Received:
    +573
    Darwin's "belief" is absolutely a religion. In fact it takes real faith to think a cell just appeared and began splitting into everything we see...
  15. GatorRade
    Offline

    GatorRade Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    6,957
    Likes Received:
    236
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +771
    Not a religion, a science. The difference is that science looks to the empirical world, and then makes a claim from those observations. On the other hand, religion makes a claim, and then asks to fit the world into that claim. They are two very different ways of understanding the world.

    The theory of evolution, of which Darwin's theory of natural selection is a part, is based on tremendous amounts of empirical observations, theory, and reasoning. Unlike religion, it welcomes revisions by anyone interested. In science, there can be only one right answer, and virtually no biologist disagrees with evolution. However, in philosophy and religion, there is no right answer or consensus. Jews, Hindus, Christians...all viable religions. You, personally, of course are free to believe whatever you want regarding life on this planet. However, that does not mean that those scientific facts that you choose to disregard become "religion". They are true or not true, regardless of your beliefs.

    (PS Darwin's book isn't about the origin of life itself. It is about the origin of different species of life.)
  16. QGator2414
    Offline

    QGator2414 VIP Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Messages:
    12,796
    Likes Received:
    155
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Ocala
    Ratings Received:
    +573
    I have no issues with studying evolution.

    The Darwinists however have no "right answer or consensus" for how earth/species began yet believe away...
  17. QGator2414
    Offline

    QGator2414 VIP Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Messages:
    12,796
    Likes Received:
    155
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Ocala
    Ratings Received:
    +573
    Classic!

    Forget that the "different species of life" origins come from "life itself" according to Darwin...
  18. Gatormb
    Offline

    Gatormb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    8,946
    Likes Received:
    287
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Bradenton, Fl
    Ratings Received:
    +872
    It is a religion Rade.

    Darwin's ardent apostle and dedicated disciple, Thomas Henry Huxley, likewise admitted that his own opinion was NOT grounded on any true scientific facts or evidence, but was more of a "religious" expression: "I beg you once more to recollect that I have no right to call my opinion anything but an act of philosophical faith."

    http://deeptruths.com/articles/big_lie_exposed.html

    We never heard yet or they never proved yet that any dog ever became a cat or a cat a dog! There are all kinds of dogs and all kinds of cats, but there are no dog-cats or no cat-dogs! Because God created everything "after its own kind" and they can't possibly get out of that kind. They may vary within their kind or specie, but they'll never change into another! It's impossible!

    These facts even disturbed Darwin, who questioned, "Why, if species have descended from the other species by fine gradation, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion, instead of the species being, as we see them, well defined?" The answer to Charles' question is simple! All he had to do was read Genesis Chapter One and he could have known that species have not descended from other species, but were created by God in orderly, set "kinds"--and that's why all nature is not in confusion!
  19. ursidman
    Offline

    ursidman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2007
    Messages:
    2,889
    Likes Received:
    603
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings Received:
    +1,192
    Yes, yes a thousand times yes. Science produces quantifiable, testable empirical data. Facts. It invites theories to the contrary and requires reason and proof. Holy books produce faith if one chooses - not quantifiable, not testable, not empirical and theories to the contrary will get one killed in some locales. It requires the suspension of reason and the need for proof in order to believe.
  20. scamgtr
    Offline

    scamgtr VIP Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Messages:
    434
    Likes Received:
    154
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Stuart, FL
    Ratings Received:
    +235
    You are wasting your time talking about science and the scientific method, to true believers there is nothing that any secular humanist can produce to change their mind. The text of the Bible is infallible.

    Where religion is concerned, I have found it especially difficult to show the true believer the flaws inherent in blind belief. They minimize inconsistencies in biblical text, throw out red herring after red herring, deflect, and attack perceived flaws in the scientific method.

    Deeply religious people have a difficult time seeing why their God is not everyone else's God. They reject Allah, Buddha, Zeus, and Shiva and wonder why some people reject God. They say their God is the one true God. How do they know? Their God says so. That is circular reasoning. In any other context, most believers would recognize that; however, with faith that disbelief is suspended.

    It is difficult to make believers understand that. That is why atheists and others have the right to disseminate their ideas as well. I don't push my atheism on others but I worry that when Bibles and those that push them on people, especially kids in schools without giving the other side am opportunity to refute, it is a bit one sided.

    Atheism is a radical idea that is not shared by 95% of the world. It bothered me growing up that my feelings of this Bible stuff doesn't make sense was frowned upon. There are a lot of people that push religion on people. I think it is a personal choice that everyone needs to come to on their own. All atheists really desire is space. We've thought it out, for many of us; it is not about being immoral, hating God, or making fun of religious people. However, that is how we are treated. Religion is everywhere; art, movies, literature, and architecture. It is in no danger of disappearing. You have cable networks for Christians, Jews, and Islam. There is an alternate culture of movies and music. To claim that there is some kind of squelching power on their religion because they can't disseminate Bibles on public property is really disingenuous. It smacks of just never being enough...
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2013
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page