"School privatization is a hoax, “reformers” aim to destroy public schools"

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by philnotfil, Sep 15, 2013.

  1. Tasselhoff
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    Tasselhoff Well-Known Member

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    I am late to the discussion...but why is choice a bad thing. Let parents decide. If the public scho works for them...great. If private school is better...ok. If they want to go charter and have one close by..go for it. Want to homeschool your kids..not problem. No one way works for everyone. Never has never will. Give each family a voucher for teach student. Voucher can only be used on education. Whether public private or whatever....here it is. Let the parent decide. Am I missing why this would be bad?
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  2. Tasselhoff
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    Tasselhoff Well-Known Member

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    I am late to the discussion...but why is choice a bad thing. Let parents decide. If the public scho works for them...great. If private school is better...ok. If they want to go charter and have one close by..go for it. Want to homeschool your kids..not problem. No one way works for everyone. Never has never will. Give each family a voucher for teach student. Voucher can only be used on education. Whether public private or whatever....here it is. Let the parent decide. Am I missing why this would be bad?
  3. G8trGr8t
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    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    it is bad because gubmnt and unions do not like competetion
  4. Swampmaster
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    Swampmaster New Member

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    if a private school provides a better education to a child than a public school, that is an "increase in value."
  5. philnotfil
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    philnotfil Well-Known Member

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    Correct, but we aren't talking about individual schools, we are talking about two groups of schools, regular public schools versus quasi-public charter schools. When we compare these two groups, we find that there isn't really a difference between these groups, despite the charter schools being able to remove disruptive and low-performing students (and not having to deal with as many special education students). There are absolutely some charter schools that work well, just like there are some public schools that work well.

    But when we look at the two approaches to institutional education, there isn't really a difference in student achievement, but having charter schools weakens the regular public schools.
  6. LittleBlueLW
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    LittleBlueLW Well-Known Member

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    Your last paragraph is categorically false in our local system. Huge difference in achievement and the competition is raising the level of public school achievement at the same time.
  7. rivergator
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    rivergator Well-Known Member

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  8. philnotfil
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    philnotfil Well-Known Member

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    My last paragraph is categorically false for many local systems. But it is categorically true for a larger number of local systems.
  9. G8trGr8t
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    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    if you look at the areas where it is not working I suspect that you will find many low information decision makers that do not value education. no system will work if the populace being served does not value the service enough to be involved in it at some level
  10. LittleBlueLW
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    LittleBlueLW Well-Known Member

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    Where are these large number of schools systems that have gone charter and failed?

    And I am not talking for profit private charter. I am talking local systems that have taken local control and have a public charter system.

    Perhaps we werent speaking of the same thing.
  11. AzCatFan
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    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

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    Some Charter schools are excellent. Most are no better or worse than the average public school, and some Charters need to close down. And there have been studies that compare Charter schools with Public schools. And as this article states:

    If you click through to the study you will see Charter schools are doing better today than 5 years ago, and that is certainly encouraging. And one reason for this is about 8% of Charter schools from the study published in 2009 are either no longer open and/or have completely changed ownership. Still, nobody here is going to complain about improved schools, and the study is encouraging on that end.

    However when you compare "virtual twins", the study shows charter schools outperform publics in low income, minority/ESL areas. In other areas, there is really no significant performance difference.
  12. G8trGr8t
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    http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...ildren-outperform-peers-in-regular-classrooms

    that is quoted from the study by CREDO, not from an article about the study, and it seems to disagree with the article summation.

    we need a homer simpson emoticon
  13. AzCatFan
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    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

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    Bigger gains means larger improvements. But bigger gains can also be attributed to two things. One, different starting point. And two, dropping the bottom by doing something public schools cannot do so easily--close schools down completely. Again, how much of the gains can be attributed to 8% of the worst charter schools no longer being in existence?

    Still, the report is not all negative, and the improvement with disadvantaged students is encouraging. But read between the lines and it means for those of us in middle to upper class areas, charter schools don't perform better than their public counterparts. And overall? Gains are good, but cutting the worst performing charters can account for a significant part of overall gains. Meaning at the student level, the gains aren't as high as the numbers say. In other words, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
  14. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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    MichaelJoeWilliamson Well-Known Member

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    I think one can make a case that both private and public schools do better with affluent clientele than they do with poor clientele. It gets to the cultural imperative of affluent parents. Most value a good education and both insist and ensure that their children receive and also value a good education. Affluent parents often have choice, in the sense that they will pay for a private education if good public education is not available, even if they have to pay for both.

    So, should poor parents also have choices? I think so, given that the worst public schools are often in the poorest neighborhoods. The parents that don't give a damn will probably not avail themselves of the choice. But the ones that do want their children to have access to quality education will make the effort to ensure their kids go to the best school available.

    Let's not insist that the most vulnerable members of our society have the odds stacked against their children. Let's give them the opportunity for their children to have access to a way out of poverty. It's the right thing to do.
  15. oldgator
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    oldgator Premium Member

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    you might have benefited from a better school(whatever route you took--public or private)

    government
    competition

    -------
    in any case, what you say about government not liking competition---also applies to corporations.

    businesses tend to do what they can(legally or illegally) to not compete---since it cuts into their profits
  16. AzCatFan
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    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this. It can also explain the results of the CREDO study. In middle to upper class areas, Charters didn't do statistically better than public schools. But larger gains were noticed in traditionally lower-class areas. Why? Well as MJW points out, in areas where parents stress education to their kids, schools are going to be successful. But in lower class areas, it's only the parents that value education the most that is moving kids out of public schools and into charter schools. Hence, charters located in lower-class areas have essentially the best kids cherry-picked for them.

    What this means, of course, is that charter schools do no better than public schools. Take a low-income area with several low-performing elementary public schools and take the kids with the most involved parents from the schools and place them in their own public school, it would be the best performing in the area. That's what is happening with charters in low-income areas.

    None of this says we shouldn't give parents a choice. And certainly there are charter schools that add a lot of value. But charter schools and privatization isn't the answer alone.
  17. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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    MichaelJoeWilliamson Well-Known Member

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    Good post overall but I am going to quibble with you a tad. On the bolded sentence, I would write (and maybe you meant this) that "on an overall average charter schools do no better than public schools. When non-charter public school are bad, they give a bitter education."

    Also, charter schools ARE public schools. Just run differently.
  18. AzCatFan
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    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

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    Yes, on the average, charters do as well as traditional publics. Some charters are fantastic. Some are so bad they should be shut down immediately.
  19. MichaelJoeWilliamson
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    MichaelJoeWilliamson Well-Known Member

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    So are some non-charter public schools. Some private schools are pretty bad too, from an academic perspective.

    The point is that one kind of delivery system is not the answer. Different circumstances might require different methods.

    If I were involved in a school board, I might first identify the worsts schools in my district. Then I might identify the characteristics and the circumstances of those neighborhoods. And then I might look at delivery models and the type of people that have been successful in other places under similar circumstances.
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  20. philnotfil
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    philnotfil Well-Known Member

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    pdf of the 2013 CREDO study

    From page 65:

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