Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by jdy2323, Jul 31, 2013.
So...it's no different than what Rangel said and Rangel got a pass.
Hey there bludigal. Haven't butted heads in awhile. Hope all is well.
I don't disagree with your 'want' of getting by racial divides. In fact we have discussed this at length. And I do think most here would agree, regardless of views of the particular situation.
I am reminded of Muschamp's statement one time early on with the gators. "We are what our record says we are." If your actions discriminate unfairly against minorities or you use words (more or less regularly) that show you to be racist, well then you are racist (not you specifically).
But the use of words in some ways is almost superficial since one of the issues that has arisen is to the degree to which, for example, someone like Riley Cooper, uncharacteristically calls a black man the n-word. He's not known for being racist, he clearly has many African American people who count hims as a friend, and he was clearly, clearly broken by this. But I am not judging what is in his heart of hearts, only providing my interpretation of it.
My longish point is that given the ubiquity of the word in rap music and art, and in communication among the young etc..., the tragedy is that this word does get used in many different ways with no repercussions on the user because in some circles it is socially acceptable...a sign of being in the "in crowd."
Also, it might also be because we hear it so much, psychologically/linguistically it is easy to say. I am not a linguist, but I know folks have written about how we can access that word (maybe a "freudian slip sort of way) so easily that folks just "do." This presents a wrinkle in how to deal with it.
This would suggest that for someone as young as Riley Cooper who despite having been around and friends with many African Americans, he still might not have appreciated the degree to which this word really offends a sizable segment of the African American population given the different acceptable uses and the generational gap that exists. Also, it probably offended even more so given the context in which he used it; shouting at a black security guard while surrounded by a bunch of white, privileged folks standing in the VIP section at a concert which was likely overwhelmingly attended by white folks. And context as you know, very much matters.
I haven't hammered Riley, I don't think he's racist and I think he just made a stupid mistake for which better or worse, was caught on video (I think better because he'll be a better man coming out of it). I have tried to talk about the cultural impact of the word and to enlighten some folks about its history (something I have a pretty deep knowledge about).
That said, while I admire your sentiments, I don't share your opinion that we should just stop talking about race/racism. Maybe the specific case with RC, sure, but not racism generally. Not talking about problems does not make them go away. It requires talking through them. I doubt we'd say this to our own wife or child if we have a problem with their behavior or what they say to us. Sure, it's hard to communicate about race in particular given the ugly history, but given some of the ignorance about it that I have observed (not saying just on here), I am more convinced then ever that we must.
Rangel said what he said literally 28 hours ago. People are calling for a public apology (which is what Cooper ended up doing).
People as in conservatives? Tea party members? How bout if Sen. Sessions said this, blacks in the naacp are N's. You suppose he'd get the same treatment CR? Really? There would be marchers at his door step and every MSM hollering for his resignation. So please, I like ya obob but come on man...
Sessions lost a chance at a judgeship due to his pretty ugly proclivity to call black men "boy."
and CR got what??? Again, if sessions said anything remotly close what CR said we all know you and AAs would be livid. Again, thanks for making my point, when white men say something huge consequences, when blacks say something chirp chirp.
You had a point?
Not as far as you are concerned
I don't say we shouldn't talk about racism. I say we shouldn't talk about race. If someone treats someone unfairly, then whatever the race, etc, we should try to correct the behavior, whether it is for age, religion, obesity, born ugly, etc. We just shouldn't be mean to our fellow man, period for any reason. Kumbya and all that.
I just don't like the whole focus on race, the every race gets a history month but the white guy, etc. We have debated it and I do respect your view, I just thing the focus on race is another tool the man uses to maintain control on us all.
The other thing I disagree with you whole heartedly on, is your point about statistics. I think we just grab statistics as a society and say see. look see and it is correlation not necessarily causation.
For example, stop and frisk. I think it is crap because I think it violates our civil rights and I hate cops so I could care less about officer safety, that is there job suck it up.
But, people use the statistics to try and show racism. It could be that they just stop in frisk in predominantly high crime areas within NYC, which due to lower socioeconomic reasons the rate of minorities in said area is higher. I don't think they are stopping and frisking on wall street (Not that they shouldn't :grin: ) but if they did, the number of whites verse minorities may shoot up. Does that mean all of the sudden cops started being racist against whites? No.
Sentencing differences could be grammatical and again socioeconomic. Do we have statistics that compare illiterates regardless of race? Or does the sentencing disparities stay the same across wealth lines?
Maybe it does and America is still the Klan but without the burning crosses. I just don't see it. But I used to see on here every day someone posting a statistic that didn't prove their point republican, democrat or libertarian. Again, it was the more ice cream sold the more likely there would be a shark bite at the beach. Like Ben and Jerry's caused the shark attack.
I don't deny racism exists. I just am not sure whites are the most racist of the races. I firmly believe we will grow out of it as a society. But the false claims of racism and accusation of racial profiling when no evidence existed of it against Zimmerman (I think he would have followed Trayvon no matter what race he was) hurt race relations. This talking about race hurts more than helps.
I don't believe there are African_Americans, unless you have some kind of dual citizenship I don't know about, I am not German American, I am an American period.
So when the President of the USA is claiming to be African_American, I am offended. When he acts like Zimmerman profiled Trayvon, rather than allowing that maybe Zimmerman followed cause the kid was new to the neighborhood and just didn't recognize him, or someone locked their car doors cause the person's attire, or someone grabbed their purse tight because they are just uncomfortable being around men period in small spaces cause they were molested as a kid, etc. Instead of our President saying you make an ass out of you and me when you assume, he condoned every black person in America assuming every white person;s actions are some subtle form of racism.
Sorry, JDR, this talking about race is doing more damage than it is helping race relations in my opinion. :no:
My question to you would be, then why talk about anything of social importance? I mean, pretending race doesn't exist by not talking about is kind of odd to me. I'll grant that too much can be made of it at times, but your prescription is to do away with any talk regardless. What this leads to is not "color blindness" or equality or good race relations but a reversion to a white-centric view because even with a black/bi-racial president and many advancements by blacks and other minorities, whites by and large still control the levers of economic and political power. It's no different than not wanting to talk about gender related issues (such as women in the workplace) which wouldn't mean that if we did, the problems would disappear, only that we just don't talk about them.
As far as stats and crime. I completely disagree with not needing them. That's absurd of a pretty large magnitude. What better way to not be able to hold folks, particularly in government, accountable than doing away with what can bring systematic empirical evidence to bear? No doubt people can and use stats to deceive, and I mean no offense, but I am pretty stunned anyone can make an irrational argument that we should get rid of them completely. I am almost at a loss for words. No, correlation is not causation, but correlation is really important to understanding. And correlation found over many studies points to causation and points to what is likely systematic issues.
You think stop and frisk is crap and that it violates our rights (so do I, and I have written about it many times). But you hate cops and then are bothered by the one best mechanism to expose systematic police wrongdoing? Now I am confused. I will grant-and as has been written about pretty widely in the academic literature on this/related issues, no, many studies cannot infer the mindset of a police officer from aggregate data on police. In other words, you can't really show racial profiling from just stop data. However, your view presupposes that this is the only type of statistical data that can be collected, or that it is the only type of statistical data that is collected. This would be wildly wrong.
On the other hand, what you are actually raising is a good issue. Good research studies need to parcel out the effects of stop and frisk or profiling from say, place, social class, race, criminal record, "suspect" or citizen behavior etc.... All of which are relevant and part of the research process. For instance in NYC, police not only stop African Americans at higher rates in predominantly African American neighborhoods, they do so in predominantly white neighborhoods too. Not only that, under the NYPD's stop and frisk, they are no more likely to find contraband or illegal activity among African American than other racial groups, yet the police stop African Americans overall at nearly 4x as much as whites and 3x as much as Hispanic/Latinos, this after controlling for the economic affluence of the neighborhood, the race specific crime rates, reason for the stop, and a whole host of other factors. Such numbers on their own raise really disturbing issues about the way the NYPD goes about their business (and has since the 1990s). But this isn't the only evidence. There is also voluminous anecdotal, survey, and qualitative data that show disparate treatment of minorities, particularly young black and Hispanic males by the NYPD.
The point, even accounting for race differences in offending and all these other important factors, the findings from systematic studies of police stop/frisk data show a statistically significant difference across race (and class: think wall st.). You would have us throw all of this out why? Same goes for sentencing data, most especially as it connects to drug related crime and punishment. Study after study shows significant race differences in sentencing even after controlling for prior criminal record, socioeconomic class, employment, education, drug use/abuse, home ownership etc...We can't infer about any individual judge in these sentencing outcomes, but to have significant disparities exist across studies from different courts in different places for different crimes all pointing in the same direction, it's possible to conclude that there is bias in the system. Our methods and good data can do that. Really, I am stunned by some of what you have written. Maybe more confused than anything since you at once want to improve things but don't want to systematically document the problems that might be holding back such improvement. I really don't get that.
I think you need to think or read more about why racism might be so different with respect to African Americans or any other minority group. It's a luxury--yes a luxury--for middle and upper class whites to not have to actually contend with such issues unless they so choose. And I think it's this lack of thinking about it, inquiring about it, getting educated about it that leads many whites to take similar positions as you have. I admire that you want "equality" or better yet a fairer system and society, but I think you miss some key points about race, one in which many African Americans or other minorities are forced to think about and contend with in negotiating their lives. The kind of overt Jim Crow pre-civil rights racism may no longer dominate in the US, but the effects of racism and discrimination are still something that is part of life for many African Americans for which "you" can either choose to see it or not. Heck, even for many AAs, they pick and choose their battles, so often those racial slights or even outright discrimination doesn't make the news cycle because many suck it up to get by. That's a fact of life for many minorities.
You didn't read what I wrote. If sentencing is unequal with all things being equal then I think it is proof of racism. I don't see these studies. I see the totals. I don't see the chart that shows white illiterates making 5K a year verse black illiterates making 5k a year both living in the same neighborhood, judicial precinct, etc. But you say the studies exist.
But, hey if there is proof, by all means I will believe it, I understand statistics. I just don''t believe that you can have so much correlation that you are allowed to jump to causation cause it is near impossible to get a control group.
Also, of course, whites have the money and control. I mean balcks weren't even free in all reality until the 60's. You think they are going to make up an almost 200 year head start in 50 years? Come on? Money is passed down, education, connections, etc.
AMerica is about the ability to pursue the American dream, not a guarantee of it. There is no fair or just way to try and "level" the playing field. The only way to do it is to rig the game "against" someone else.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Sorry some people's ancestors and even some folks still alive today got shafted. it sucks. But not by me or by all whites, so there is no way to right the wrong.
We just go to move on. I don't believe a poor white kid has an advantage over a poor black kid and thus we have equality. Everyone who is born int money has the same opportunity to maintain it or lose it.
But, no obviously, the odds of being born into money are greater if you are born white.
Are we saying that makes our country an unfair place to be born black?
I just don't get it. If police are racially profiling for stop and frisk and there is statistical evidence that it occurs with all other factors held equal. Like clothing? maybe they are doing it based on attire. Like maybe they stop baggie pants not suits? I don't know I haven't seen the studies. But if they have proof of it JDR< why can't they stop the police, it is crazy to me.
I want all the crap stopped, so if there is real evidence, not an aggregate of correlation but real, everything else is equal then by all means they are racists and/or racially profiling, not sure what it is when a black cop does it to a black citizen???
But, I hope those with the evidence are successful. I just don't every see those types of data.
You didn't get it.
Try again, or try something more simple.
Glad you brought this up. Saved me the trouble. Cracker offensive? Not to me. Rugged hard working guy is my image.
Don't know if it's the crown royal or that it's 2am, but I am cracking up over this. reps