Retards are worth $2 an hour

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by busigator96, Jan 30, 2014.

  1. gatorev12
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    gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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    Soooo...I suppose this book wasn't authored by them?

    http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Measurement-David-Card/dp/0691048231

    A "counter-revolutionary trick" as the Soviets would say?

    Now, anyone who's familiar with Card and Kreuger would recognize the title and the study's findings. It combines a lot of their studies into one work, similar to the book I cited. In fact (though this may surprise you), in order to summarize the totality of their findings, many researchers write books that build off of their peer-reviewed articles. These books are then studied at universities so that the findings of 4-5 scholarly articles are able to be read at once (teaching efficiency at the same time).

    Sure, if you want to focus on a segment of their studies. It's no lie that teenage unemployment and youth unemployment are dramatically effected by minimum wage increases--in fact, the numbers bear that out (check out the recent numbers in those demographics if you'd like).

    Did you read the article I posted?

    They're every bit as known and respected as Card and Kreuger. Come now, it's hardly like I put up some crackpot guys from a community college to respond. They've earned the praise of numerous others economists--and there are many scholarly articles that support their findings (just as Card and Kreuger have their supporters too).

    If you read the study, you'd have noticed the empirical research you asked for. I suggest you process it.

    Well, you've said that the book by Neumark and Wascher wasn't a valid source because it wasn't peer-reviewed (ignoring the fact that your own proffered economists wrote their own book based on their studies)--which is false since the book references and builds upon numerous studies they've done, along with other economists. Pretty sure you'd have known that had you read the book.

    Books written by academics are a way of building and expanding on their scholarly research articles. These books are often required reading at schools so that way, students can have a broad-based exposure to multiple articles. Shocking, I know--but it makes sense since one would think an economics class would have some degree of efficiency.

    ...more data's been able to be processed and analyzed, true--but it hasn't exactly fundamentally altered the basic premise of supply and demand (though I gather that's what you're trying to postulate).

    If you're really tying to sit here and say those 5 authors represent the only economists in the field that feel that way, then you're lying.

    Come now, I don't sit here and say Card & Kreuger are the only economists who feel that minimum wage increases have "negligible" effects on employment (and yet, those two--plus 3 others cited by vert) are the only ones you guys have provided.

    And, it would appear you're also guilty of appealing to authority by your "many economists think their work is accurate" here (without citing them). Monkey see, monkey do, eh?

    I don't think there's a poll done on the subject; but your viewpoint runs counter to economic theory, as you've already acknowledged. Nevertheless, most people are guilty of some logic fallacy or another in any argument. If I really wanted to go back and break it down, I'm sure there would be plenty of examples in my arguments--and in yours. We already know you did the same thing I did a post after you called me out on me doing it.


    ...which the authors addressed. I suggest you read the book; it was written over a decade after Card & Kreuger's work and after there were far more examples of minimum wage increases across the US.
  2. vertigo0923
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    vertigo0923 night owl mod VIP Member

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    bullshit. i posted more than that.

    http://www.policymic.com/articles/8...-said-about-raising-the-minimum-wage-to-10-10

    600 > 4
  3. gatorev12
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    gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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    Are you going to sit here and claim that I found the only two economists out there that are opposed to a minimum wage hike? If so, you'd be lying just as egregiously. The reality is: there are far too many economists who feel the way I do--and who've published dozens of papers (with supporting data).

    I gather that you don't agree with those economists. It's ok...I don't expect you to. I don't expect you to read or comprehend their arguments (you've already admitted to that). I'd be willing to bet you don't know why your own economists who advocate an increased hike do so over a phased, gradual increase either (as opposed to doing it all at once, as Obama has called for).

    But don't sit here and pretend that I don't have a plethora of economists backing up my opinion. That would be obtuse ignorance at best and lying at worst. That was the first time you've linked that article too btw.
  4. vertigo0923
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    vertigo0923 night owl mod VIP Member

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    no. if you'll look back, heck, i'll even direct you to the comments i made, you'll see that i said there were two sides and that for every study you cite against minimum wage, i can find another that is in favor of it.

    you're the one that keeps saying that 'your guys are the ones who are right'.
    not me.
    and it's hilarious to me that, even in the face of 600 economists...you're still up there stating that 'far too many economists feel as I do'
    (you're hitting on all cylinders. there's that condescension we've discussed...again...)
    gee, far too many economists feel as I do. ;)
    you want to call this a stalemate, or are you going to keep on your current trajectory? you know, 'i'm right, you're wrong, cons are right, libs are wrong' yada yada yada yada ad nauseam.
    you missed the part in my last post, (oh yeah, it was the entirety of my last post)....that said that you were wrong. we introduced more than 4 economists between us.
    then, i produced (again) the link regarding 600 of them. doesn't matter what their reasons are, (though, i have actually read their explanations) BUT that's not important, because i was only pointing out that you'd missed your mark on that accusation. to the tune of 596 economists.

    probably you didn't notice when i posted that, because i must have been 'blathering'.
    lmao
    :D

    we're gonna discuss this wordiness issue of yours.
    ("He draweth out the thread of his verbosity finer than the staple of his argument" - William Shakespeare)
    you could have stopped with just 'ignorance'. you didn't need that additional adjective 'obtuse'.
    see:

    Obtuse:

    adjective

    Definition: 1. slow to learn or understand; 2. lacking insight; 3. blunt or rounded, not sharp

    Synonyms: dim-witted, dull, dumb, ignorant, stupid, blunt


    you'd sound intellectual, if you'd quit trying so hard to sound intellectual.
    and 'too many words', not 'enough meaning' tends to bore me to tears. no, i'm not likely to pay attention once that wordiness of yours kicks in.

    oops. i missed the 'plethora' thing.
    nothing wrong with that word or how it was used. it just reminds me of a funny movie scene.




    p.s. you are paying attention.
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2014
  5. gatorev12
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    gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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    Well, I definitely missed that link if you've posted it before. Certainly not within the last several pages.

    But if you really want me to post hundreds of articles by way of response to counter, well, it would seem wasted effort (at least on you) since you've already admitted you don't read anything that's been posted.

    Btw: the reason your economists wanted a *phased* increase spread out over three years is because a sudden, rapid change in minimum wage would be a price shock to the market that would exacerbate negative effects. But that probably matters little to you.
  6. QGator2414
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    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    Absolutely I hold the thought that in the example of a $20K pension one has enough to provide food and shelter for themselves (especially considering no dependents should be involved).

    Medicare also needs to be reformed. And over time moved to something much more like what Dr. Carson proposed in HSA type accounts. Again it would take decades. And yes I would still have beef with the Feds being involved but understand they will be at this point. But costs in Medicare need to be drastically cut. And like SS we can't because people feel entitled to other peoples money to pay for coverage they never paid for.

    Medicare is tough because promises were made about ones health at the expense of others. Government using redistribution and ones health to create dependence is disgusting and wrong!
  7. vertigo0923
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    vertigo0923 night owl mod VIP Member

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    you might want to look at the first page or two.

    i said i 'skim' articles by rightwing economists: you do remember that word, right 'skim'? as in, where i used that?
    you do know that 'skimming' is just a way to read fast...
    sure, i don't get into all the details when i do that, but i DO get the gist of what is being argued.
    like i've said (over and over and over)
    i don't agree. and, do i really need to point out that i'm not the only one that disagrees with the opinions you posted?
    i mean that. i posted my opinion, and the reasons i have my opinion, and also i posted material to back UP my opinion. and that's where we are (still).

    "that probably matters little to you'' (lol, you don't know, actually, jack shit about what matters to me, do you? well wait, actually you might have some sort of general idea, but we won't find it in anything that you agree with and/or post.)

    i'm sure the same goes for stuff i post. i'm sure it matters little to you.
    which brings us back to that stalemate thing, once again, doesn't it?

    on the plus side, there aren't any superfluous adjectives to deal with!

    have a great day.
  8. QGator2414
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    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    And how do you suppose the entity that has run these two entitlement programs insolvent is going to run universal healthcare with an extra 200 million plus people to pay for?
  9. vertigo0923
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    vertigo0923 night owl mod VIP Member

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    i think that saying that people in this country are spoiled because they don't live in 10X10 boxes is disgusting.
    sorry.
    and i don't think people should go bankrupt, and end up on the street due to health issues.

    that's where we are always going to differ.
    costs of healthcare need to be cut. but i think that's totally different from what you're saying

    you can't find a lefty on this board who won't agree that (obviously) we need reforms/adjustments etc etc for both social security and medicare. but no, not what you think: HSA's aren't going to take care of elderly people. hsa's are not the best thing for chronic illness, not realistically. (and old age, for most people, consists of chronic ailments) and as for the privatizing of ssi? won't work either because if the market goes down, like it did in '08, then you have a lot of homeless, desperate people
    i know you're saying the feds have to be involved. glad you see that. yes, they need to be, just for obvious reasons.
    have a great day!
  10. QGator2414
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    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    I don't doubt you do.

    From what I have read it appears you feel you are better than someone just because you are blessed to be an American.

    As I have said multiple times I am for a "safety net" which means people will not "end up on the street". They just may not have the three bedroom house they are accustomed to living in. And it could be for a variety if reasons.

    If these programs were true "safety nets" then those on them would still live better than the vast majority of people in the world. I understand you appear to think you are better than those people and we disagree on that.

    Which is why I find it disgusting you want to redistribute so you can get yours/we can get ours (I am sure I will be a part of a society that asks my kids generation to pay for entitlements because our wealth was used for pryor generations so we can get a check in the mail).

    And you find it disgusting that I do not want to steal from another to pay for enhancements in a standard of living ($20K a year in this country is a dream for the vast majority of the world).
  11. MichiGator2002
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    Maybe a more updated, albeit hipster, way to explain what a safety net should be is in 8-bit terms. If we have a safety net, it should basically be the option to insert another coin to continue -- the difference between "game goes on" and "game over". The liberal progressive hijacking of the concept is to try to make it the Konami Code, thirty free lives and thirty continues before you even start playing and ultimately you can just ignore things like "playing well" or "knowing what the hell you are doing" because you are immune to consequence.
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  12. mdgator05
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    I never said they never wrote a book. Most top notch academics have. Good money making opportunity. However, I linked their peer-reviewed papers instead of their book as claims made in books are given far less scrutiny than the claims made in papers.

    I can honestly say that after quite a bit of graduate level econ, I only once ran into a Prof using a book instead of the initial paper. The first time I saw Card and Kreuger was when I was assigned their work in Metrics 1 to describe event studies. I was not assigned the book, just the major paper. Books often times don't have the methodological depth of the papers, so they are pretty useless in a standard graduate level class, which is often time oriented more towards methodology and how research is conducted. Even the one counter-example only used a book as a small sample in conjunction with a whole load of papers.

    Yes, which of their studies don't deal with youth employment and instead deal with employment overall?

    Never said they weren't known. I wouldn't say they are as known or as respected as Card and Kreuger. But I agree that they aren't crackpots. Card and Kreuger are both central economists in top 10 departments with a paper studied in the first year of every graduate level program. I don't think you can say the same about Neumark or Wascher. That is not to say they are wrong or to be dismissive of their findings, mostly just fact checking here.

    My concerns are with what is built on the solid foundation and what is left out of that solid foundation. Again, why I don't particularly like books and why I didn't cite Card and Kreuger's books.

    Econ profs for the most part are teaching methods. As such, teaching out of a book is not terribly useful. Also, most top level econ people really aren't terribly concerned about the amount of time it takes students to read research to prep for their classes. Obviously, that is a bit of a generalization, but one based on quite a few observations with at most one counter-example.

    It has fundamentally changed our understanding of the nature of supply-and-demand and their relationship. It has also expanded the field well beyond simple supply-and-demand.

    Actually, you did say something very similar to that earlier in the thread. Past quotes from you in this thread:

    So I'm glad you are now recognizing that quite a few economists agree with Card and Kreuger. That is progress.

    First, I already cited a series of them (Dube, Lester, and Reich and Doucouliagos and Stanley are already cited in this thread). Second, I was citing a replication and a meta-analysis, which are basically the opposite of appealing to authority as replication is based on the idea that results need to be shown again for accuracy and the meta-analysis handles all results as equal observations.


    And I didn't say it runs counter to economic theory. It runs counter to classical economic theory. However, economic theory is now quite a bit more complex than classical theory, partially due to all the changes I mentioned before and the ability to relax some rather dubious assumptions on which classical theory rests. Economic theory has been changing to account for some of the empirical results which have thrown classical theory into question. And no, I did not appeal to authority.



    Do they have a rejoinder in a journal? Again, I am dubious of defenses that are not evaluated by experts in the field before they are printed.
  13. vertigo0923
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    vertigo0923 night owl mod VIP Member

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    1. yes. i am blessed to be an american. and yes, we have better living standards than india...or somalia. on account of that, yes yes yes...we DO expect more. i'm not 'better' than some poor person who had the misfortune to be born in somalia, but due to the fact that i am an american, and that my relatives came over here from europe, and made a better life for themselves, AND helped create a better country....absolutely....i can reasonably expect better from my country. so i guess, if you think i'm wrong to expect more as an american, well.....plenty of places where boxes are in vogue. have at them.
    i have no idea what you're getting at there. ??????
    seems to me, if you don't like the way things are here....well....there are plenty of third world countries with no government assistance/intervention at all.
    2. there's that 'i want mine screw you on yours' stuff we've talked about (ad nauseam) yeah, you can bet your ass that your generation is gonna want it's bennies. you know what? these things were started because politician who ran on those platforms won. those things are in place because the majority here want them. and as you said, 'they're here to stay', so quit yer whining. we've all admitted there needs to be some tweaking. i find it's unrealistic, and selfish of YOU to keep hinting that the rest of us shouldn't take ours. i have a hard time believing that should something catastrophic befall your family (or any rightwinger, anywhere....for that matter), you would utilize any federal aid available. it's all well and good to say you won't...now.....but you can't know the future.
  14. QGator2414
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    smh

    Just sad that we justify stealing our futures wealth as if we are better and owed it.

    Here you go...

    $17 trillion in debt and insolvent redistribution programs to decide whether you want to screw your kids like we did.

    But hey we are Americans so who cares what we do to and leave our kids, grandkids, great grandkids etc...
  15. vertigo0923
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    vertigo0923 night owl mod VIP Member

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