1. Gator Country Black Friday special!

    Stay on top of the football coach search with the Insider Authority on Gator Sports with a special discount!

    Now's a great time to join or renew and get up to $20 off your annual subscription! LIMITED QUANTITIES -- for details click here.

Question for gun owners/military members

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by HallGator, Jul 19, 2014.

  1. Tasselhoff
    Online

    Tasselhoff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    2,400
    Likes Received:
    108
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +402
    a.223 or .330 blk can be appropriate for HD. Just do some research on what ammo you are using. There are plenty of HD ammo made specifically not over penetrate. But it will be deafening.
  2. ncgatr1
    Offline

    ncgatr1 Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    5,199
    Likes Received:
    231
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +871
    The issue with using a carbine is that you have to worry about the rounds penetrating walls and possibly killing neighbors. Ruger makes some nice rifles like the mini 14. I would recommend a shotgun because of the variety of shells and cost. Shotguns are very effective home defense weapons. Of course, nothing beats a hand gun. Easy to shoot and can fire it rapidly on the move.
  3. fastsix
    Offline

    fastsix Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2007
    Messages:
    6,694
    Likes Received:
    273
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Seattle
    Ratings Received:
    +1,223
    Hollow points don't expand in drywall. This article is probably what you're looking for.

    http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/02/10/long-guns-short-yardage-is-223-the-best-home-defense-caliber/

    Proponents of the pistol for home defense like to think that because it’s “just” a pistol round, overpenetration really won’t be an issue. Such is not the case. Drywall sheets and hollow-core doors (which are what you’ll find in the majority of homes and apartments in this country) offer almost no resistance to bullets. Unless brick or cinderblock was used somewhere in your construction, any pistol cartridge powerful enough to be thought of as suitable for self-defense is likely to fly completely through every wall in your abode. In fact, hollowpoint pistol bullets tend to plug up as they go through drywall, turning them—in effect—into round-nose bullets. Round buckshot pellets are just as bad, and shotgun slugs are worse.

    These same concerns about overpenetration are what kept people away from considering the rifle for home defense. For years many people just assumed they knew what would happen to a rifle bullet fired indoors—it would go through every wall available and then exit the building. While armor-piercing and FMJ ammunition is specifically designed to do this, extensive testing has shown that light, extremely fast-moving .223 projectiles (including FMJs) often fragment when they hit a barrier as soft as thin plywood.

    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. HallGator
    Offline

    HallGator Administrator VIP Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    44,293
    Likes Received:
    1,038
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Outer Limits
    Ratings Received:
    +4,110
    Thanks for the article but I am more concerned with the penetration of the outside walls. Mine are heart pine lap boards overlayed with hard asbestos shingles. As I stated earlier I am not really concerned with any inside penetration as only my wife and I are here.

    I would probably opt for the pistol or the shotgun but was looking for info on rifles. Doubt seriously that would be my first choice.
  5. fastsix
    Offline

    fastsix Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2007
    Messages:
    6,694
    Likes Received:
    273
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Seattle
    Ratings Received:
    +1,223
    That's in the article.

    While armor-piercing and FMJ ammunition is specifically designed to do this, extensive testing has shown that light, extremely fast-moving .223 projectiles (including FMJs) often fragment when they hit a barrier as soft as thin plywood.
    ...

    When using rifle ammunition with projectiles designed specifically for personal defense, such as Winchester’s new .223 PDX1 loadings, fragmentation is assured. Bullets striking an intruder will separate into smaller, lighter pieces and—most likely—not overpenetrate and exit the body as errant shrapnel. All of the energy generated will then be transferred into the target. If the round fired is a miss and hits only wood or drywall, the projectile will break apart into smaller pieces—while these are still dangerous, their potential for injury, or penetration of additional walls, is much less than a pistol bullet or buckshot pellet. Many SWAT teams are using M4-type rifles, and overpenetration, when your teammate may be on the other side of the wall, is a major concern.

    Read more: http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/02/...-the-best-home-defense-caliber/#ixzz37yiXJfNM
  6. HallGator
    Offline

    HallGator Administrator VIP Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    44,293
    Likes Received:
    1,038
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Outer Limits
    Ratings Received:
    +4,110
    Thanks, my eyes are tired and I didn't pick up on all of it.
  7. helix139
    Online

    helix139 VIP Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    6,638
    Likes Received:
    795
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings Received:
    +2,691
    I'd even caution about using a shotgun. Anything much more than birdshot will cut through double layer drywall like a hot knife through butter.

    A handgun really is the best choice for a number of reasons.

    A) less over penetration
    B) can keep a hand free to operate a handheld flashlight and/or move and direct family members
    C) easy to suppress to quiet levels and not have to worry about making yourself deaf after one round
    D) you can still get something like a red dot sight on a pistol by having the slide cut for an RMR
    E) they are the most maneuverable in tight quarters
  8. Lawdog88
    Offline

    Lawdog88 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2007
    Messages:
    30,727
    Likes Received:
    605
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Inside the War Room, No Name City, FL
    Ratings Received:
    +2,178

    "[H]ard asbestos shingles ?" Whatz up Hall, people have to don Haz-Mat suits to visit you guys ? :eek:

    Kidding, of course.

    You can't find a tougher house than one with tongue and groove pine sheathing or roof decking. And as a skin, asbestos shingles are pretty doggone impervious to the elements . . . but not to baseballs, rocks, and gunshots.
  9. HallGator
    Offline

    HallGator Administrator VIP Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    44,293
    Likes Received:
    1,038
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Outer Limits
    Ratings Received:
    +4,110
    Durn things last for ever if you don't break them. Brittle as heck but hard as a rock. Hey, but what's a little asbestos poisoning between friends.
  10. BastogneGator
    Online

    BastogneGator Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,980
    Likes Received:
    150
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +688
    I think the first question you should ask yourself is what rifle are you the most experienced with? Obviously you want something short, potentially able to mount a light. Unless you have a lot of time to do dry fire drills etc I would go with the rifle that is closest to what you already use. Inside the house you are looking at ranges around 5m... It doesn't take a 2000 dollar gun to get it done at that range. If you can put two shots in a 2in square the gun is more than adequate. Shot placement and bullet construction will trump caliber in my opinion.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. HallGator
    Offline

    HallGator Administrator VIP Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    44,293
    Likes Received:
    1,038
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Outer Limits
    Ratings Received:
    +4,110
    I grew up shooting .22s, 30-30s, and some 308s. Really haven't shot a rifle much in many years. That is one of the reasons I wanted something I could take to the range and start familiarizing myself with. I have quite a few people who are knowledgeable and proficient I could go to the range with so that's a plus. I like the idea of smaller lighter ammo that also has some power behind it.
  12. BastogneGator
    Online

    BastogneGator Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,980
    Likes Received:
    150
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +688
    To be honest, the 30-30 wouldn't be a terrible HD rifle with the right bullet. It's light and handy. In close range shooting rapid follow up shots are important, but so is getting a new sight picture. I always laugh at the tacti-cool guys shooting "hammer pairs".
  13. sneakygator
    Offline

    sneakygator Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2007
    Messages:
    14,741
    Likes Received:
    279
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Trinity, FL
    Ratings Received:
    +332
    Henry big boy lever action in 357.
  14. BastogneGator
    Online

    BastogneGator Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,980
    Likes Received:
    150
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +688
    Good thing about a lever action is you can forget to clean it for a decade or so and it will still cycle. I found the Winchester model 94 I grew up with (and abused) in the back of my Dad's closet. Still functions just fine.

    AR platforms are great; but far from the only effective platform. If you don't have the time to become infinitely familiar with it there are alternatives just as effective.
  15. vertigo0923
    Offline

    vertigo0923 night owl mod VIP Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2007
    Messages:
    39,342
    Likes Received:
    3,854
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    sec country
    Ratings Received:
    +5,459
    can't really hold a handgun. have neck issues that have weakened (considerably) my arms. so i've been taught to rest the shotgun across the side of my hip for balance, aim for someone's midsection. if they were advancing towards you, that's certainly gonna stop them. its just me and the husband here now, but that's informative, and need to be kept in mind (your shotgun info)
  16. CaptUSMCNole
    Offline

    CaptUSMCNole Active Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,996
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    NCR
    Ratings Received:
    +80
    I have a Beretta Cx4 Storm carbine that fires .40 rounds. It would be my go to firearm if anyone ever broke into my home for a couple reasons: It is a .40 and has better stopping power than a .556, additionally, it has a 12 round mag that allows for more rounds and easy reloading over a shotgun. (Yes, I know you shouldn't need more than 5 rounds, but just in case you did). It allows for better shot placement than a handgun and a shorter barrel than most AR-15's.
  17. BastogneGator
    Online

    BastogneGator Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,980
    Likes Received:
    150
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +688
    Shotgun is the best close range weapon there is. No need to shoot 00 buck. Turkey loads would work just fine and won't exit the home. Bird shot is much better for breaching etc than buck shot.
    • Informative Informative x 1
  18. GatorBen
    Online

    GatorBen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    7,053
    Likes Received:
    515
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings Received:
    +2,222
    Turkey shot tends to be magnum loads, so you're increasing the felt recoil without much gain.

    I tend to view #1 buck as the ideal home defense round. It has somewhat less over-penetration potential than the big buckshot pellets, but still consistently produces adequate penetration on ballistics gel.

    Turkey shot tends to be between #4 and #6, and while it's still better than the tiny birdshot, and will tear someone up pretty good, it's not a "stopping power" round because the pellets don't have the mass to penetrate to vitals. Might it kill someone eventually? Sure. But it doesn't do you a lot of good for the bad guy to bleed out a couple of hours later from your turkey shot if it didn't stop them at the time you needed it to.

    The reason you shoot turkeys in the head is because the shot won't reliably penetrate the wing into the vitals if you go for a body shot. That's not a characteristic I'm really looking for in a home defense round.
    • Informative Informative x 1
  19. brainstorm
    Online

    brainstorm VIP Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    16,776
    Likes Received:
    331
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Green Cove Springs
    Ratings Received:
    +1,126
    Okay, I did some reading and it appears that buckshot will go through dry wall and could hurt someone on the other side (or worse). And I don't think birdshot is a good choice. You shoot a gun in a HD situation only to stop someone from harming you or your loved ones and birdshot isn't a good choice.

    I did learn several things. If you are going to arm yourself to protect against a home intruder then you should do some "practice" moving around your house with (an unloaded) gun to get familiar with a home defense scenario IN YOUR HOUSE. In addition to good locks you need an early warning system - either a good alarm system (with motion and window coverage) or at least a dog that will make a lot of noise barking if someone comes near. The best goal should be to get everyone to a safe spot and call for help instead of cowboying it, even though that may not be the choice you're given. Finally, you should go to the range and get a lot of practice in with the gun you will use.

    Your points about moving around the house in the dark with a carbine length gun is well taken. However, this might not be a problem in some houses. I would stay away from a rifle since the bullet will come out with a much higher velocity and you could actually hit someone in your neighbor's house.

    So, I guess I would change my choice to a handgun if I had to choose just one gun. My preference is a Glock 21 .45 ACP with 13 in a clip. It has good size (fits my hand well and is easier to shoot than a smaller gun) and is light. And I like the .45 ACP a lot - big bullet and nice stopping power. And with 13 shots you can miss and still be in good shape.
  20. BastogneGator
    Online

    BastogneGator Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,980
    Likes Received:
    150
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +688
    Think of the ranges you are dealing with. How far away are you shooting an intruder versus how far away are you shooting a turkey. Honestly you are probably hitting an intruder with the wad cup. Secondly stopping power and penetration are sometimes inverse. That's the problem with FMJs. Someone getting shot with a load of lead #4s at 15 - 30 feet is absorbing every bit of potential energy that they round produces (which is considerable); secondly as far as animals go humans aren't that hard to kill. Turkeys are shot at ranges of 40-50 yards, you also shoot a turkey in the head because you don't want to ruin the breasts.

    2 3/4 in high brass shells with a larger shot like #4-TT aren't that bad.

    The best weapon for home defense will always be the one you happen to have handy when you need it.

Share This Page