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Pride, proud and prejudice (and hubris)

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by 95Gator, Mar 7, 2014.

  1. 95Gator
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    95Gator Well-Known Member

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    Firstly, I am posting this in here because I feel that the intelligence pool is highest and I have the most chance of getting to the bottom of this. Unfortunately, it's also not the nicest place in the world so I am hoping a good discussion can come out of it. Probably never have any thought to what I'm about to say but my friends and I spent hours discussing and arguing it and came to no final conclusion.

    Now I told everyone that they represent the most intellectual corner of GC and left out that it's full of assholes so please help me. Oh wait, I just screwed up but since I, under the umbrella of a feeble attempt at humor got to call everyone an a-hole and I gotta say, it feels good. :)

    Ok, on to the serious business of definitions. In the fifth of a 2 part series discussing pride, proud and hubris I give you what I have discussed for hours.

    I'm going to try and bias you with my thoughts right off the bat because I need to be proven wrong. I am not after being right. I don't care about winning a discussion/argument, I just want to end up with the correct knowledge. So far, nobody has been able to explain to me this.

    Pride (noun) - a feeling or deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired.

    Proud (adjective) - feeling deep pleasure or satisfaction as a result of one's own achievements, qualities, or possessions or those of someone with whom one is closely associated.

    Hubris - excessive pride or self-confidence; arrogance.

    Okay, now it seems real obvious to me. The noun of pride is the quantitative noun that describes a level of pride which then should in theory if things work out, relate to the act (the adjective) of being proud.

    Hubris is a defined word that expresses that too much pride can be negative because as the bible says pride goeth before the fall. The bible aside, certainly too much pride can lead to arrogance. I'll explain my issue with this in a moment and see if anyone agrees (that is if anyone reads it as I'm well aware this isn't the most exciting thing until you really start thinking about it and questioning it.)

    So EVERYONE I ended up in this argument with was saying that there are very marked differences between pride and proud when to me they are the exact same word but modified to express the act and the quantity.

    I used this anology for my point. If you love someone you must also have love for them. Having love being the qualifier a kin to "pride" and loving someone the act, a kin to "being proud". Now just because of the nature of the word the act of loving is a verb vs. the act of being proud which is an adjctive. A person actively loves but a person IS proud.

    Everyone was saying (I think because of the definition of hubris using pride) that pride is wholly different than proud because it has a negative connotation behind it.

    I thought my above analogy was dead on and would sway everyone over to my logic, but no. Instead there were 10 people that seemed to all be wrong and two of them are the most intelligent people I know so I questioned myself and wanted to be educated but nobody could convince me. That's why I'm here. I would love confirmation that I'm not wrong or for someone to better explain what I'm missing.

    Now back to hubris, why do we have a defined word to give us philosophy? I can't think of another single word in our language where we are told and warned of the negative impact of having too much of it can produce. I don't think anyone would disagree that too much love can smother someone, that too much faith can lead to dissapoibtment, too much intelligence can make us all assholes :). And hey, literally 100 percent of sociopaths have extremely high self asteem yet I don't recall a word giving us this philosophy so why do we have one for pride? It would seem to me that we should be left to our own vices in deciding our own philosophies in life. Since when is a qualitative characteristic such as good or bad defined for us??? It's bizarre and to make matters stranger as these concepts that never once crossed my mind were putting me at odds with everyone, it was this negative context that was being cited for pride as opposed to proud. Upon just reading the definition, there is no mention of good or bad in the words pride or proud, only pride in the definition of hubris because of course you would use the quanative version to define when too much of something could be bad. Never mind that the definition of hubris itself is an anomaly and makes no sense to me.

    Now to me proud and pride go hand in hand like faith and trust and having love and loving.

    Fact or false: I must have love for myself to love myself. I must have love for you to love you. --- I must have pride in myself to be proud of myself and I must have pride in you to be proud of you.

    Let's use an example of when too much pride can bite you. We all love our Gators and take pride in everything Gators and we were let down last season and were not proud so our abundance of pride led to a major dissapointmebt (fall).

    But that same pride was rewarded many times as we watched Tim Tebow make the promise and win the NC or when we won a SECCG. Indeed we feel more proud when we have more pride. They go hand in hand so why is EVERYONE telling me their different? Again, if you assert they are, please tell me why.

    I also kept hearing that with pride as opposed to "love" or "trust" that you need the context of the sentence to determine do it's "good or bad pride" but this makes no sense. It's not the context that makes the pride good or bad, it's the result. It's stupid to even talk about it being too much or not because I can't think of another word that has a whole other word to definine the dangers of being overly proud.

    My examples of too much intelligence or too much self asteem can also be bad is a fine example. Pride fits in to the definition of hubris when the final result is bad which can come in the form of arrogance or dissapointment.

    If your pride in yourself rises to the level of arrogance than that could be bad (unless you want to be arrogant in which case it's perfect) leading me to the mind numbing definition of a qualitative characteristic in hubris. Even words like murder or hate are not defined with a qualification. Murder is a premeditated, willful act of killing another human. We are left to our own brains to know that's bad. Hubris says that too much pride can lead to arrogance but no qualifications of murder. Negative connotations aren't defined, they either exist for you or not. Emos strive to feel sadness, sadists yearn for pain. Hubris is a bizarre word and I think it's rooted in the bible. I'm gonna get to the bottom of this but I don't see how the context of the sentence defines the connotation. For two reasons, we decide that on our own, and anyway it's the result of our placed pride that results in us being a level of proud or disappointment. Same with love. If we love too much, we can get hurt more. There are lots of these examples but I can't think of a single word that has it's own definition warning of the dangers. Anyway, it still doesn't add a negative to pride or proud. Look at the definitions. They are identical. It's hubris that uses pride and of course because it's the word that uses quantity not because it's inherently negative. So hubris is the negative word, and pride and proud are perfectly innocent and are just different modes of the same exact definition.

    Just look at the definition. Please explain how any of what I just said is wrong. Again, I am baffled and just want to know. I think that it's just a misnomer that pride is associated with negative because of hubris and the biblical phrase.

    I'm sure this is really boring and if you got this far, I hope you learned something and then please tell me what you learned.

    Okay, this all seems obvious but everyone was against me. Ironically you might think it's because I have too much pride in myself but no, I just want to know what everyone else does or know how to correct them.

    I think I'm gonna start a petition to remove hubris from the language. What a useless word. We are quite capable of deciding what words end up being bad. Thanks anyway Webster but could you leave the philosophy to Socrates because your word is confusing people I think.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
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  2. gatorev12
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    gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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    "...BUT BUSH!!!"

    "BENGHAZI!!!"

    "PrezBo is a communist narcissist intent on destroying America from within!"

    "FoxBots and TeaBaggers are destroying our country!"


    ...ok, with that out of the way; hopefully the thread can stay on track as you intended. I must confess: I stopped reading a few sentences in (it's late and I'm lazy from working out). I'll respond sometime tomorrow. :D
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  3. gatorev12
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    gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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    I changed my mind out of sheer curiosity and read it. Had to go back a few times since this was a stream of conscious narrative and what you're arguing is VERY nuanced.

    I can see what you are saying, to be sure: there are more similarities between the two words than not (it's like comparing Vermont to New Hampshire--both are fundamentally the same eFin thing and if there wasn't signs marking the border, no one would really know the difference). And I disagree with you about the need for the word "hubris"---if only because it's a fancy sounding name and sounds cool to throw out there to further burnish one's intellectual credentials for assholishness (particularly on TH).

    In any case: it's possible for "proud" to have negative connotations depending on how one uses it. Saying someone is "overly proud of __" certainly carries a negative connotation.
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  4. 95Gator
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    95Gator Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your input!

    To your last point about proud also having its own theoretical negative connotation, I agree and said as much during our discussion. Indeed the phrase "I'm not too proud to beg" shows it. If your level of pride made it so you were "too proud to beg" and begging would be a good thing it would certainly hinder you. I used the same point. As for your reasoning of the inclusion of the word hubris, I understand the sentiment but there are just so many inconsistencies in our language. It doesn't truly irk me but if it's leading to people thinking that having pride is inherently bad, then that's not a good thing and it appears that it is.

    Thanks!
  5. QGator2414
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    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    The hubris to say pride and proud are the same thing. And worse that you want hubris stricken from our language...

    ***On a side note this may be the first time I have ever used the word hubris.
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  6. 95Gator
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    95Gator Well-Known Member

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    Ha. Yeah that was tongue and cheek. It is a strange word when compared to the rest of the language.

    I did not say they were the same word, in fact I noted the differences and then asked if people thought they were different outside of one being the quantative noun and the other the adjective that is part and parcel to having pride. I also stated that I am only looking for the truth on this odd thing that nobody can agree on. Judging from your post I should lower my expectations. Like most you inferred that they were different but you didn't fail to explain it, you just didn't. At least you learned how to use the word hubris. Actually on second thought, I'm pretty sure you used it incorrectly. It might be right but "oh the hubris" doesn't feel right. Anyway thanks for reading and posting even though your post set me back on the issue. :)
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  7. LittleBlueLW
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    LittleBlueLW Premium Member

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    Pride and proud typically have positive connotation in plainspeak whereas hubris, notsomuch.

    Just my dumb cracker stab at it.
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  8. QGator2414
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    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    I am pretty much with you in that if pride leads to arrogance...just call it arrogance.
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  9. exiledgator
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    exiledgator Gruntled Premium Member

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    I agree w/ @LittleBlueLW. Pride and proud aren't inherently negative, where hubris is nearly always perceived (or defined?) as such. Only by having too much pride, or being too proud are these words "bad"; hubris IS bad, though: too much pride/self-confidence, often without the required skills or knowledge to justify said pride/confidence. There's really no such thing as too much hubris.

    Not to derail the thread, but many of the fine folks of VT and NH would take exception to your comparison, rev. ;)
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  10. tegator80
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    tegator80 Well-Known Member

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    Um, thanks?

    BTW, what exactly is inside your navel?
  11. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    Hubris = pride without humility. This is why in athlete speak you always thank your teammates, coaching, etc even if you are supremely confident and prideful in your abilities.
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  12. WESGATORS
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    95, I agree with you in that the words are similar in terms of their positive/negative value. One thing that makes "pride" or "proud" negative is the degree in which you are separating them from humility, not necessarily humility in any specific category, but as it pertains to your overall character (if that makes sense). Another thing that can make these terms negative is the separation that it creates. Pride/proud lead to distinctions, the more pride/proud you are, the more value you place in the distinctions...this necessarily leads to a prejudice as you have a preference for one over another based on the distinction. Not all separation is negative (i.e. you can take pride in healthy/productive behavior or attributes), but clearly some is.

    Go GATORS!
    ,WESGATORS
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  13. lacuna
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    lacuna Well-Known Member

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    95, thanks for the pensive read. I appreciate the time and thought you have invested in it. I don't know that I have anything worthy of your consideration but to add I think pride and proud are 2 word forms that express the same conditional state of being. As in "Adam is proud of his daughter for learning her ABC's." Or - "Adam has pride in his daughter for learning her abc's."

    Both sentences are expressing the same prideful feeling or emotion that takes delight in her accomplishment, but the grammatical context dictates which usage is appropriate. The word anger is another such word that expresses state of being. I can be angry or I can feel anger. The emotional state of being hasn't changed, only the way it is stated as dictated by the grammatical context chosen to express the emotion.

    Pride and Proud are both derived from Old English and old French related to Latin:
    Hubris is Indo-European in derivation and comes into our language by way of Greek with its own particular baggage. I don't know that pride and hubris were used concurrently by English speakers 6 or 7 hundred years ago, but if they were it might have been because from the introduction of hubris into the common vocabulary it was utilized exclusively to express a negative or detrimental state of being whereas pride expressed the more pleased or delighted sense of being with which we are commonly familiar.
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  14. 95Gator
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    95Gator Well-Known Member

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    This is why I love you!

    Humility is such a desirable and attractive characteristic, especially in someone with great insight and knowledge.

    You started with the notion that you might not have anything worth consideration and then took my exact thoughts after my research and expressed them more eloquently than I have yet and I've had this conversation a few times. I agree with your assessment in totality and thank you for giving me a blueprint to try and explain it better to my friends that are in complete disagreement with me.

    Especially that the difference in pride and proud is simply a grammatical distinction.

    My friend is insistent that pride and proud are unique because of the fact that there is "good pride" and "bad pride" and you can only distinguish between the two "based on context". I told him that that is true for any word that could be viewed as negative by the reader and his statement is obvious, not unique.

    It's only my respect for his intelligence that is getting in the way of my own thoughts and you have helped me to feel stronger in my thoughts.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
  15. Spurffelbow833
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    Spurffelbow833 Well-Known Member

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    Pride is generally perceived as being directed inward (egocentric). The word proud is more often used to describe positive feelings toward others for their achievements (empathetic).
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  16. Lawdog88
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    Me too. Proud in the construction biz, means something swole up too much, or a bump that most likely, shouldn't be there. Like, an imperfection by sticking out too much.

    Which really, is kinda what pride is anyway.
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  17. 95Gator
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    95Gator Well-Known Member

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    This is exactly what he says but I don't see why other than him, and now you saying it.

    If it sounded strange to say "I take pride in my employees work" or "I take pride in the Florida Gators" than I could understand that but outside of that, I need it explained.

    If I can properly say that I have pride in something outward than why is your explanation valid?

    That is not a rhetorical question.

    This is my thought on it. Because you are proud and it's a state of being rather than a verb where the action is an actual action, only you can be proud but the object is still inward or outward. You can be proud of someone else you have pride in and you can be proud of and take pride in yourself.

    Please explain that I am wrong or right and WHY. I didn't want to say exactly what you said because I wanted to see if someone would come up with it themselves and since you did I hope we can get to the bottom of this.

    I haven't found the inward and outward nature of the word in any definition so isn't it just because you can't feel someone else's pride (being proud) just like you can't feel someone else's happiness, anger or disappointment. In other words, how does it make the words definably different?
  18. lacuna
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    lacuna Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, 95. I gotta be careful from getting a swelled head from that sort of undeserved praise.

    The word pride does come with some baggage because of the biblical usage such as "Pride goeth before a fall." In the KJ translation of the New Testament 2 Greek words - used in only 3 verses - have been translated as pride or boastings in a listing of undesirable or sinful practices.

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G212
    Jam 4:16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: G212 all such rejoicing is evil.

    [​IMG] 1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride G212 of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G5243
    Mark 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride G5243, foolishness:

    To remove any negative impression of boasting, perhaps it would be better to say we are pleased, or delighted, or satisfied with our team, our child, or our self.

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