Pope Francis: Capitalism is “a new tyranny”

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by chompalot, Nov 26, 2013.

  1. DeanMeadGator
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    I am always amazed that many unrelated people are aggregated into an amorpous group that is given a name [generally by someone who doesn't know the people], and it is assumed that all the members of that ill-defined group have the same beliefs, ways of seeing the world, opinions, faith, beliefs and wishes for the poor and oppressed, as well as for those who are sick, elderly, ad infinitum.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  2. Wormwood56
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    No. Christ believed that taking care of the poor was done in the form of personal charity, not government handouts. Salvation is a personal aspiration, not a collective one...
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  3. Wormwood56
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    Wormwood56 VIP Member

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    The sheer irony of this nonsensical statement transcends sheer size. For well over a century, the ideological side that promoted the maxim, " if you are not with me, you are against me, and are my enemy" are those on the Left. From the Russian Revolution, where Lenin crushed the non-Bolshevik Left, through Stalin persecuting Trotskyinsts, allowing Hitler to gain power by refusing to support the non-Socialist Left, by sealing Republican Spain to their doom by sabotaging the POUM and other non-Stalinist factions fighting against Franco and the Falangists, to the present day, drumming out blacks, latinos, women and others who dare not toe "The Party Line."

    Read Orwell, Koestler, Chambers and others, and learn...
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  4. dangolegators
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    dangolegators Well-Known Member

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    Just more black-and-white/all-or-nothing thinking from a conservative.
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  5. 92gator
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    Just more denial by a neo-libby.
  6. tim85
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    tim85 Well-Known Member

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    Interestingly enough, in my most recent Philosophy course(fantastic class) my professor taught that most things really are black and white, and that humans by their own nature try to muddy the waters to allow themselves more wiggle-room. Besides, since when is viewing some things through a black & white lens supposed to be a bad thing - what point does that even make?
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  7. Gatormb
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    Gatormb Well-Known Member

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    Catholic Charities is one of the worlds finest. Considering 60% of worldwide donations to the RCC come from the good old U (capitalistic) S (society) A to the tune of 3.6 billion dollars a year, perhaps the Pope should reconsider his position on capitalism.
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  8. 92gator
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    Good point--but don't put too much stock into what the US-MSM tries to sell the world about the Pope's position on capitalism--as always, they spin to fit their own agenda, with impunity.

    Rather than cut & paste my prior post, or refer you to go digging for it, I'll just quote it to re-post it. But the context, let alone the emphasis, isn't quite what the MSM boys would have the world believe.
  9. 92gator
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    92gator Well-Known Member

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    [NB: REPUBLISHED, AS INDICATED ABOVE]:

    FYI:

    Here's the link to the actual Apostolic letter of the Pope:

    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/f...tazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium_en.html

    Also worth noting--

    --It is a 224 page document. The gist of the OP refers to a one maybe 2 sections out of 287 (beginning around Section 190, et. seq.);

    --The letter was written to Christians--not to civil authorities;

    --His comments are an invitation to voluntary observance of the Gospel message, not a call to authoritarian mandate;

    --He was referring to a bi-product of capitalism (in context), not attacking capitalism per se;

    --most of the rest of the letter, is very spiritual/religious in nature--only marginally "social"--here is a brief summary:

    Hence it's quite a stretch to claim that the Pope has condemned capitalism, en toto. As I alluded to in my prior post, many of the aspirational objectives concerning the dignity of Man (which underlies his commentary vis a vis the marginalization of the poor) presupposes PRIVATE PROPERTY [RIGHTS]--which is the signature/defining characteristic and foundational element of capitalism.

    Note: approx. 5:20 PM, EST
  10. asuragator
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    In my reading the Pope certainly condenmed the downsides of capitalism, which many free market/capitalist fundamentalists basically pretend doesn't exist, or that somehow capitalism will fix its own downsides.

    Though we shouldn't ignore the criticisms coming from the right, now accuing him of being a communist or Marxist.
  11. gatorpa
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    gatorpa Well-Known Member

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    Just asking, what specifics of capitalism/free markets does he condemn?
  12. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    See here, which I bolded (I just quoted part of it, there is quite a bit more):

    Last edited: Dec 9, 2013
  13. gatorpa
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    gatorpa Well-Known Member

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    I admit I quickly scanned the text from your link. The general sense I get is the excesses are where the problem is. Although the Pope gives many non specific examples of the negative consequences of capitalist markets, the Bible teaches to avoid excess in all areas.

    His opinion seems to be the ills and suffering of the world are caused by some illegal/greedy people/Governments/businesses. Many, include myself would suggest that Capitalism and freedom have helped lift the world to the high standard of living much of the worlds people enjoy, and that without it far more people would suffer and die. That is not to say there are not some bad seeds out there. But I think they are the exception as opposed to the rule.

    The problem is how does he propose to fix the issue he sees? Tight Governmental control over production and profit has never worked out well in the long run. (See the old bankrupt Soviet Block) Just as people choose to work harder for greater rewards, they choose to work less when those rewards are limited. (Just ask any hourly worker, they work a certain amount of OT but at a certain point they end up paying more in taxes than the feel the extra work is worth.)
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  14. asuragator
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    I assume that no perfect system exists and while I am not anti-capitalism, I would say though that the downsides of capitalism have been observed and written about throughout history. It's well worn terrain. I agree though that it has lifted (many countries) to incredible standards of living. OTOH, what we see in advanced capitalist societies is still a concentration of wealth in a small portion of hands, and that concentration--to the extent that it becomes more concentrated--comes at the expense of everyone else, which has considerable ill effects on society. The Pope was speaking to this and many other troubling observations.

    I know as you say that some choose to work less or at all. No doubt. But many/most able adults that need to work would actually choose to work, yet many of those that do still can't make ends meet. And with rising inequality, it is getting increasingly harder for even those of middle class means to get make ends meet, and rising inequality plays a key role in this.
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2013
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  15. SECund2nun
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    I have respect for the Pope. He stays true to his religion and is not a pawn or advocate of gluttony, greed, and materialism.
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  16. 92gator
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    Sure--I don't see how that disagrees with my post.

    He didn't condemn capitalism en toto; just some of its bi-products.

    Also note the bigger picture--this 'condemnation' was hardly an express condemnation--that is, the 'letter' (more like a book) wasn't written with the express purpose of condemning even the negative aspects of capitalism--those comments still represent a miniscule portion of the entire letter--like 5 sections tops, scattered over 87 sections; like 3-4 pages, of 224 pages. Basically comments in passing, betraying a latent bias against *capitalism* in general, rather than an express attack on it.

    Look, I'm not suggesting for a second that the Pope is a dyed in the wool capitalist pig. He's not. No pope in my life time, nor any that I'm aware of, has ever been. But that doesn't amount to being expressly, overtly, actively anti-capitalist either, and certainly not a commie by any stretch. Perhaps socialistic leanings, sure....

    But far more importantly, is the mere fact that he is the Pope. I listen to and subscribe to the Pope's views on the Faith.

    I discount any purported expertise in the economic arena, as easily as I discount any views of the Faith, latently, or even openly, championed by President Obama. He's free to believe in Allah, Mohammed, Jesus as a prophet, or whatever views he actually holds. That's his business, and I would never look to him as an authority on matters of the Faith (which is not to say that I don't object when he lets his religion spill into the Law, and his direct impact he has on it, vis a vis his executive authority--e.g.--HHS, and abortion).
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2013
  17. gatorpa
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    gatorpa Well-Known Member

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    The issue is one that has been bantered back an forth, I reject the premise that the rich get richer by "taking from the poor" that makes no sense to me. If I've made money by selling a product, nobody forced anyone to buy it so the notion I stole or took from somebody is silly. Of course I'm not speaking about people who made money by illegal means, or pulled a Madoff.

    I'm not inferring that you are saying this but I did get the sense that the Pope does from the link.
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  18. 92gator
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    92gator Well-Known Member

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    The Pope actually does identify real problems. Inequality, is a real problem. Marginalization of the poor, is a real problem. Abuse of those without much in terms of power or resources, is a real problem. They're all quite real, and quite problematic. And he does, by implication, attribute these problems to capitalism.

    But he's--probably by design--rather vague in terms of solutions.

    Now, to further illustrate what the Left is attempting to do with Pope Francis' comments, allow me to offer a counter example:

    The Pope said:

    Therefore, CLEARLY, the Pope is condemning President Obama, since Obama is apparently, promoting economic policies which result in the reduction of the work force, which is thereby adding to the ranks of the excluded.

    ;)
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2013
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  19. chompalot
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    chompalot Well-Known Member

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    How the righties are spending Christmas:

    [​IMG]
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  20. gatorpa
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    This is just as sad as Pubs/Cons who rail at Lib's with lame quotes insinuating the like to kill the unborn.

    I wonder if the poster and the cartoonist really think that is what the Pubs/Cons believe when they talk about cutting Gov spending/ entitlement reform.

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