Pope Francis: Capitalism is “a new tyranny”

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by chompalot, Nov 26, 2013.

  1. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    I have no doubt that all of us could find plenty of examples of laziness, and probably a lot closer to home than many realize :) (not saying you).

    Drugs certainly play a role in this too. But I also work with many poor, often though not always ex-cons trying to overcome drug addiction and trying to right themselves. It's a tough haul and laziness is really not what its about. It's about the addiction and about their position in life. Many addicts in the middle and upper classes can hide this addiction much easier or if they can't, their fall doesn't tie them to a lifetime of blocked opportunities. But I'd suggest that many of those with addictions also have either diagnosed or undiagnosed mental health issues--some of which might be caused by the addiction, others of which their mental health issues led to addiction.

    It's too easy to generalize though from some individuals we "know" who might fit some preconceived beliefs that we have which leads us to a form of confirmation bias. We prejudge them as lazy and then interpret them through this filter. The problem though is much deeper. Most folks here didn't grow up poor, though a few have claimed to. Well, they are the fortunate ones since more likely than not, if you are born into poverty, you will not escape poverty. That's the trap. Kind of hard to simply label them as 'lazy' when being poor comes with so many more concomitant negative force that act as barriers to social mobility, so it could be that by the time you see some of these folks, their will has already been broken. It's hard enough for those of us in the middle class to maintain and/or improve our lot in life and we have a lot less ground to cover and many, many more advantages and fewer barriers.

    Again though, I don't dispute that there are lazy poor (there are many lazy middle class and upper class folks who 'take' too); I do dispute the sweeping generalization that they all are, or even most (again, a majority of poor are either children, elderly or disabled). They are too easy a target to have people's own personal frustrations being dumped upon them. I would challenge folks to look beyond such simplified labels.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2013
  2. gatorpa
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    gatorpa Well-Known Member

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    My opinions are based on observation for 20 yrs as a rental property owner and working in the ER. I see all types up close and personal. I've had more than a few tenants go on UE when they can and not look for work until the beni's run out...and I quote "I make almost as much on UE, so why go to work, I'll just do some side work here and there and make more." Mind you they never lack cash for their weed.
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  3. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    FTR, not so much disputing your personal observations, as much as making the argument that poverty is much more than about laziness, and that the causal arrow doesn't go just one way.
  4. gatorpa
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    gatorpa Well-Known Member

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    Agree, but there are some who refuse to accept the fact that some people are happy to live in a lower standard of living. Successful people sometimes can't believe that anyone would choose to exist that way so some look for other reasons to explain it.
  5. candymanfromgc
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    candymanfromgc Well-Known Member

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    Get a clue dude, if they can't afford the deductables they will not use the coverage unless they have a serious illness. And this is preventive heath care? Admit it-this is a huge failure.
  6. 92gator
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    92gator Well-Known Member

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    "Lazy" is kind of a funny one. It's pretty much the natural state of man to be lazy. Babies come out lazy, and are even rewarded for being lazy (and cute). Imo, 'lazy' isn't so much a flaw, as it is an un-remedied state--essentially, a different word for 'immaturity', but not quite as packed or loaded, since it doesn't presume expectations of maturity (e.g.--you wouldn't call a little kid 'immature', and even less likely, 'lazy', due to its negative connotation--yet that's exactly what they are--not mature (and not inclined towards work, or naturally endowed with work ethic).

    Also note how many rich and successful people (my experience anyway) are self-professed 'lazy'--and have proclaimed laziness as the motivation for their success. ("...busted my ass, so that I wouldn't have to work"--i.e.--that that they could be lazy. Kind of like Arnold Shwartanegger's statement that he worked out as hard as he did, so that he could eat what he wanted to, without guilt).

    Where--and why--'lazy' is a bad thing, is when it is rewarded, and perhaps even glorified.

    The thing that makes laziness painful, is the ensuing need it yields--like the *parable* of the animals where one packs nuts in prep'n for winter, and the other parties and plays...and when winter comes, one suffers, the other....gets to relax, and be lazy.

    And that's the problem with so many well-intended govm't security programs--they remove, or largely impede, the natural forces that pushes us out of our natural state--need; hunger; thirst; pain....
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  7. 108
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    If the intent is good, what do you propose to fix the percentage that take advantage of the system without gutting the social safety net that shields many in times of true need.
  8. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    I agree that there are those who refuse to accept it. Humans tend toward not accepting/dismissing things that upset what they've come to believe.

    Then again, some folks refuse to accept that many would choose to be wealthy (if they realistically had that choice). Of which these just point to a number of poverty paradoxes that exist.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2013
  9. Gatormb
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    Never said that scripture did address the widows and orphans but other scripture does, but you knew that.

    So if the scripture is addressing the lazy in the church (agree) why would it not apply to the lazy outside of the local church?
  10. Gatormb
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    Walter Williams addressed that years ago. If physically and mentally able to work you get a "grace" period and are cut off. In his words "Starvation is a tremendous motivator".

    At the very least in order to get assistance there should be some community service required.
  11. 92gator
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    92gator Well-Known Member

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    Good point--the 'well intended' characterization was faux pas, giving credence to the stated or claimed intention--which imo, is actually about 90% crap. Political motivation, not humanitarian.

    So you inquire what the actual course of action should be taken to meet the same end--

    Idk the answer. I'll suggest some principles though:

    1. localize the process--locals know their own better than some fed'l bureaucracy--they know better who's FOS, vs. who's legit;

    2. privatize it;

    3. enforce strict time limitations on temporal relief;

    4. HAVE A PROGESS PLANS where feasible; an end game; something to strive for...
  12. Gatormb
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    Gatormb Well-Known Member

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    Agree with your post. I have some experience working with the Viper Program at the SA in Sarasota. Most there were given a choice (or go to jail) by the Judge. Tough road but most made their own bed.
  13. lacuna
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    lacuna Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I knew that and I knew that you knew it also. My post/question had more to do with the fact you judged some of the recipients of your church's charity to be "lazy." To have judged them so indicates at least a bit of resentment or other negative attitude towards them as you also likely see them as least somewhat undeserving of charity due to their laziness and resistance to the gospel. A gift given resentfully is not a gift given in the spirit of II Corinthians 9:7..."give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."

    As I wrote above, if a church, or its members, resent giving charity, or feel compelled to grudgingly give to those they consider 'lazy,' addicted or otherwise undeserving, would it perhaps be better for them to suspend gifting time and money until a more charitable attitude is cultivated and established, or the 'lazy and undeserving' exhibit a positive change in keeping with what the church desires? And if not, then what is it that motivates the church and its members to continue dispensing charitable gifts?
  14. gatorpa
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    gatorpa Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure most would, but few also accept the hard work that often is required to get there. (Unless you are 6'3" 210 and run a 4.3)
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2013
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  15. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    Well, the problem with hard work is that it's hard, not that it's work :)
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  16. rivergator
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    link
  17. Gatormb
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    On Sunday mornings we serve usually 20-30 almost always the same people. The number is dropping though as three times I've offered work (all three accepted), they failed to keep the appointment for me to pick them up and none have been seen again. All meetingwere confirmed via their cell phones.

    Just saying. Coincidence? They'd all been there every week the previous three months. Was an eye opener for me.
  18. lacuna
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    lacuna Well-Known Member

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    MB, you previously wrote:
    You mention 3 who failed to keep appointments to be picked up for work you offered them but earlier in the thread you wrote the "vast majority" who come to your church are affected by drugs and alcohol and laziness. Now you ask why would the admonition to not feed the lazy would, or should, not apply to those outside the church as it applies to members of the church. From what you have written previously I think you object to government dispensing so many free goodies through the over bloated entitlement programs. So if the admonition to not feed the lazy and undeserving should apply to government agencies, why should the same admonition not apply to churches in their dispensing of charity to the lazy and undeserving who are not members of their church?

    So I ask again - if a church, or its members, resent giving charity, or feel compelled to grudgingly give to those they consider 'lazy,' addicted or otherwise undeserving, do you think it would perhaps be better for them to suspend gifting time and money until a more charitable attitude is cultivated and established, or the 'lazy and undeserving' exhibit a positive change in keeping with what the church desires? And if not, then what is it that motivates the church and its members to continue dispensing charitable gifts?
  19. 92gator
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    92gator Well-Known Member

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    ^^^not to butt in to y'all's little exchange here, but just to throw a couple pennies' worth of perspective...

    I believe Lacuna is touching on the corruption of the concept of 'Charity'--which is derived from the latin 'caritas', meaning love (itself derivative of the 4 different Greek words for 'love'). Charity is defined in the Catechism as encompassing Christ's 2 fold commandment to love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself--while 'charity' in the secular perspective, has taken on the meaning of, essentially, material provisions provided (pardon the redundancy) to the 'needy'.

    Hence I believe that Mb's use of the concept is more in line with the secular conception, while Lacuna is inquiring on the...religious/spiritual conception of 'charity'.

    Carry on.
  20. Gatormb
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    Gatormb Well-Known Member

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    Lacuna , you make a great point. Although I am not a member of the church it shares a ministry I've employed. While most are happy to serve (food & coffee) I am more aggressve" in sharing the Gospel.

    Some "homeless" have complained about my evangelism to be honest. Fine, imo, eat somewhere else.

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