Pope Francis: Capitalism is “a new tyranny”

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by chompalot, Nov 26, 2013.

  1. lacuna
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    lacuna Well-Known Member

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    You have made some bold unsubstantiated statements in your post. For the forum's edification would you please unpack and further expand on the thinking processes that have led you to the conclusions you have made.

    Do you think this sort of confiscation is limited to socialism? Corrupt governments of all types, and the people that control them, are guilty of the same charges you assign to socialism.

    Why and how are you discerning "evil behind it"?

    Is there no evil to be found in capitalist governments and societies? What is your thinking and evidence that leads you to conclude socialism is "the most Satanic form of society known to man"? Amoral, predatory capitalists are responsible for the rampant spread of pornography in the West and I can't think of any incident more greedy than those cooked up by a few notorious American capitalists in the last 15 years. Enron; Madoff; Kozlowski, etc.

    Not to speak of a sarcastic hypocrite operating in the guise of a member of the Tea Party:

    http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/tea-party-patriot-busted-for-child-pronography-687543

    The Christian faith graciously bestows "soul-liberty" upon the Christian. Christianity teaches we should love God and then others as we ourselves want to be loved and treat all others as we wish to be treated. It is only through unselfish love that we are able to freely give in the spirit that Christ engenders in those that follow him.

    Please cite chapter and verse to substantiate your assertion that "the Bible portrays God as a Conservative, and Satan and his followers as statist liberals," so we will understand how you draw your conclusions. Please also recall these words from the 2nd chapter of Acts:

    42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

    then tell us how this relates to your brand of Biblical conservatism that believes "God [is] a Conservative" in light of the blessings bestowed upon the new Christians in those early days in Jerusalem.
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2013
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  2. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    By that standard, US democracy (and our capitalist economic system), heck any democracy or any society with a government except Christian theocracies are also incompatible with Christianity since they too place a human government in its place, no?

    What do you think capitalism does? What do you think democratic republicanism does?

    So what is compassion to you? What is justice? What is fairness?

    Socialism is just an economic system, as is capitalism. Both have their coercive elements, both have some very good upsides and some very bad downsides. As a system, neither is 'evil' though certainly some people who operate within such systems can be and often use such systems (or at least the ideas about them) toward evil ends.

    Maybe Christianity does, but does your analysis include include capitalism too? Or how about oligarchism? Plutocracism?

    I may no longer be a Christian, but I am learned enough and remember enough of my 30 years as a Catholic to know that Jesus spoke about the rightness of paying taxes. Plus there's google. I am sure others here such as Lacuna could speak more authoritatively about this than I could but you seem to me to be twisting Christian teaching to fit your conclusion.

    Maybe it's more simple than that. Maybe it's that more intellectually honest people of any political stripe refuse to accept facile claims dressed up as unassailable fact. The self-serving use of God (as your comments seem to be) are very often at the root of the most pernicious and extreme forms of social control, coercion, and corruption.
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2013
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  3. lacuna
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    lacuna Well-Known Member

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    In his post above, tideh8r asserted that "Socialism is in reality the most Satanic form of society known to man."
    That "[t]he Bible portrays God as a Conservative, and Satan and his followers as statist liberals."

    That "Socialism and Christianity are incompatible.
    Socialism violates the most central tenet of both Judaism and Christianity..."

    As he has not returned as requested to provide Biblical chapter and verse "proof" of his assertions, one is left to conclude all he wrote above was nothing more than biased, unproven opinion.

    Tideh8r, if memory serves me correctly, aren't you the GatorCountry member who several years ago posted on Too Hot that it was his very own brother who approached his local Target store to solicit funds for a Viet Nam veterans traveling Wall exhibit and was refused?
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  4. busigator96
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    busigator96 Premium Member

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    Out of curiosity, why are there only two choices? Capitalism or Socialism? I happen to believe any system which uses money as a means of exchange will fail due to corruption and eventual high levels of inequitable ownership.
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  5. gatorpa
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    gatorpa Well-Known Member

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    Some corruption will be present regardless of the system, the question is whether it is State sanctioned/endorsed.
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  6. busigator96
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    busigator96 Premium Member

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    I also believe the state is just an extension of the empowered corporatocracy. Under the current market system, the government cannot flourish over time without the private sector supporting it. Also, for the whole thing to work both sectors will need the blessing from about a dozen megabanks.
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  7. CHFG8R
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    CHFG8R Premium Member

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    Political Rhetoric if you ask me. Frankly, I'm not sure the "pure" form of either has ever existed. The US is clearly a mixed economy and, IMO, that's the way to go. Either extreme presents a lot of potential problems and neither extreme is probably even realistic given human nature.
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  8. chompalot
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    chompalot Well-Known Member

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    You are a perfect example of what type of person the author of the link I provided below is talking about. It's about how right-wing Christian thinking has been corrupted by politics.

    http://www.salon.com/2013/12/20/5_w...conservative_dogma_partner/?source=newsletter
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2013
  9. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Really accurate and just not subject to debate between reasonable people with any understanding of the theology and political philosophies in question. Charity must be voluntary to actually be charity. Larceny dressed as charity on behalf of the victim of said larceny is a double injury to human charity and human dignity.
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  10. chompalot
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    chompalot Well-Known Member

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    I figured that you'd be one to think that it is a disservice and an affront to a person's dignity if they receive charity, period. And that you're doing them a favor by not giving.

    If you don't want to call government programs for the needy charity, that's fair. But you cannot rightfully call it larceny, either. As citizens in a democracy, if we desire to discontinue programs that help the needy all we have to do is vote people in that are of the same accord. Maybe you ought to run on a "double injury platform." :p Wonder what percentage of votes that you'd get. Probably you'd get the majority of your votes from the "Christian" right, since they know that they would be more than willing to pick up all of the slack when it comes to helping the needy. (sarcasm)
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  11. chompalot
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    chompalot Well-Known Member

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  12. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    No, the injury to dignity and charity in receiving stolen gifts is... in the receiving of stolen gifts. To receive what has been taken by force or coercion from someone and given to you, someone who has done you no wrong, is an insult to you as a human being. Benefiting from some know-nothing faculty lounge-lizard's social theory of redistribution, degrades a person. It's an impersonal transfer, handed to you in a way as if to suggest you are too small and damaged to be burdened by a sense of gratitude for what you've received purely from the generosity of another.

    This is the same "two wolves and a lamb can vote on dinner and it's fair to all parties" mindset that is why Aristotle recognized that pure majoritarianism is a deviant form of government.

    American Christians are pretty much the most charitable human enterprise in the history of mortal man, so hard to see where your sarcasm is rooted. As far as I can tell, the charitable impulses of Americans have only ever been bounded by their earned, disposable income -- limits on which can usually be laid at the feet of usurious tax and regulatory burdens imposed by the state.
  13. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    That's some profoundly pompous and ignorant crap you've shared there. Hobby Lobby's up in Hobby Lobby's business. If it's their check to pick up, it's their business, let alone if they are not being given a choice. A child should understand this, and any that escapes into adulthood without understanding it should start over.
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  14. tim85
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    tim85 Well-Known Member

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    Do you read anything from any source that doesn't only and strictly reinforce your own views?

    MotherJones, Media Matters, Salon.com, Addictinginfo, etc. You're exactly the same as the right you constantly want to criticize for watching Fox News.
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  15. secgator
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    secgator Well-Known Member

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    Amen for sure. He's used whitehouse.gov numerous times as a "source"---as if THAT is an unbiased and...'credible' (LOL) source which to cite. His usage of those particular sources speaks volumes, and completely diminishes ALL credibility.
  16. Tasselhoff
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    Tasselhoff Well-Known Member

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    You guys have chomp all wrong. He is here for comedic relief. No one could be as biased, blinded, and full of "it" as he pretends to be for our benefit.
  17. chompalot
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    chompalot Well-Known Member

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    Click the blue button.

    Last edited: Dec 21, 2013
  18. gatorpa
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    gatorpa Well-Known Member

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    Funny but without the dreaded capitalist, whoever made the little video would not have a computer, let alone all the free time to sit and think that up!
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  19. born2beagator
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    born2beagator Well-Known Member

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    Hey how is that vaunted affordable care working out?
  20. gatorpa
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    gatorpa Well-Known Member

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    More and more people are going there everyday, signing up - for Medicaid and logging off when they find out how much they will have to pay!

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