Playing the Race Card...starting to get old...

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by beanfield, Mar 23, 2014.

  1. chemgator
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    chemgator Well-Known Member

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    My parents once had a discipline problem with one of my younger brothers. He was nine, and his friend had a BB-gun, so the two of them decided to go down the street to a mechanic's garage and take target practice on the cars parked there. They did $1200 worth of damage. My mother didn't touch him, and explained that my father would take care of it when he got home. My father put a vice-like grip on the boy's ear, and extracted a confession from him ("YOU DID WHAT?!!!"), while the rest of the kids looked on from a safe distance. While he was deciding what kind of punishment to administer, the police rang the door bell, and sat my parents down for a talk to convince them that the crime was serious. My father responded by saying, "You're damn right it's serious!" and demanded that they take the boy to jail for the night. The police said they couldn't do that, he was too young, etc. and slowly backed their way out of the house and said they would allow my father to take care of the problem. My father didn't give him a beating (which surprised us), but he did empty out the boy's bank account to pay for half the damages, made him apologize in person to the owner of the shop, and then let him work off the rest of the damages by mowing the yard (almost two acres) and doing various landscaping jobs around the house. He worked for $0.25 per job, and it took 2-3 years to either pay it off or be let off the hook. There was never any vandalism incidents in our household after that.
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  2. fredsanford
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    fredsanford VIP Member

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    The race card is ALMOST as tiring as those who questioned Bushco all being called Al Qaeda sympathizers.

    Almost.
  3. g8orbill
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  4. tim85
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    Congrats Fred, you've reached a new level.
  5. CHFG8R
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    What are the causes? It can't simply be that white people have it out for blacks and Hispanics. Are they intimidated by them - and/or the possibility of being labeled or considered racist - and does that lead to a pass-the-buck/let-management-handle-it mentality?
  6. asuragator
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    My bad. As I reread my earlier post and it seems a bit too confrontational when I was just trying to be direct. Anyway, just got back from shopping with the wife (that's why I couldn't respond before). Suffice it to say many things get debated, constantly, such is the nature of academia and research. And this is a worthy debate. My issue though is the confusion between what people read in the news--especially a more tabloidish news and the conclusions they draw about the research. It's easy to say "institutional racism" doesn't play a role when one is reading news about it designed to evoke some emotions or persuade one to think in a certain way. It's another story altogether to actually read through hundreds of studies and theories while trying to be objective and critical about what one is reading, taking into account any/all studies etc...

    And to that end the research on school punishment clearly indicates significant over-representation of minorities (blacks & Hispanics/Latinos), as does our cj system with respect to arrest, punishment/sentencing. And this research cannot simply be explained away as differences in personal responsibility given numerous studies control for important factors such as past behavior/record, current offense, punishment, etc... For instance even in my own research where I am co-author of a study on punishment outcomes in all middle and high schools in a large mid-western city we found that blacks were more likely to be suspended for similar incidents than Latino/Hispanics and whites. Among suspensions, blacks were more likely to receive comparatively longer ones, again, holding all other factors constant.

    There are similar findings with respect to the cj system going back decades. Does this prove beyond all doubt that it's just institutional racism. No. But it points to the important and undeniable role it plays. And this isn't to even impugn the institutions or the teachers and administrators doling out the punishment as they might not even realize any discrepancies. In fact, they might be striving to be as fair as possible. But yes, personal responsibility plays a role, and it's a great value to instill in children, and it can partly explain misbehavior in the first place. But this story isn't about misbehavior but about how we respond to misbehavior and if our punishment is unfair and systematically and consistently biased, it portends a problem to be addressed independent of the causal factors producing the misbehavior in the first place.
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2014
  7. asuragator
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    asuragator Well-Known Member

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    Not labeling anyone racist (though look at the start of this thread, I think some folks need to stop their own form of racebaiting).

    Anyway, the causes of the disproportionate punishment are a bit complicated. It's certainly about bias, but not necessarily a conscious bias. In other words, the outcome of thousands of punishments aren't necessarily driven by deliberate want of punishment of young black males more than others, but of a more complicated somewhat unrecognized/latent belief that black males are more troublesome or are just worse kids (and this could apply to black adult administrators/teachers being biased too). Black males tend to be considered more blameworthy and inherently delinquent and such labels can have ripple effects that go well beyond any particular incident.

    Intimidation can certainly play a role (or "racial threat"), but it tends to be a little more basic about the label and the value placed on black males vs others. So when they act out it is often perceived as being worse even if the incidents are--in an objective sense--not, and this can lead to the increased punitivity. Think of it as the effects of secondary-labeling where once someone thinks of another as inherently bad, the treatment of that person, regardless of what they do, will be biased by the belief about that person, and in some cases, there could be a self-fulfilling prophecy where that person starts to act in ways that confirm the bias based on how they are already being treated. At the same time, there can also be some reinforcing effects going on where the belief about someone is reinforced by others beliefs about that person...think of it as a form of groupthink. (this of course can work in the opposite direction for kids who people believe can do no wrong).
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2014
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  8. vertigo0923
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    vertigo0923 night owl mod VIP Member

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    thankfully, it appears the next generation, our children/grandchildren..are color-blind. you have everyone mixing it up: blacks and whites, whites and latinos, blacks and latinos, whites and asians, asians and blacks. latinos and asians. etc etc etc.
    when the color-lines are completely blurred, that is where the hope is for this country of immigrants.
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  9. chemgator
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    chemgator Well-Known Member

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    So why did you vote for a racist for president? Or did he sleepwalk into Jeremiah Wright's congregation for 20 years?
  10. chemgator
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    chemgator Well-Known Member

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    Teachers are some of the most liberal people out there. They spend most of their undergraduate years not learning how to teach, but they spend it being indoctrinated into thinking about how disadvantaged certain groups of children are, and how they need special understanding. My wife showed me a textbook that explained how poor black people think, and after I got over the initial shock, it was an interesting read. However, the possibility that poor black children could, through hard work and discipline, make something of their lives, was never mentioned. Only by lowering your expectations of their work could you have any hope to make them feel good enough about themselves to lead them to becoming functioning members of society. You know, standard liberal hogwash. And you had to learn to spout this hogwash in all your papers if you wanted a good grade. And you needed good grades if you wanted a good job.
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  11. vertigo0923
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    [​IMG]
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    (words fail me...)
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  12. chemgator
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    chemgator Well-Known Member

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    What is really remarkable to me is how much liberals support failed programs like Head Start. Head Start has been proven to provide minimal educational benefits, and essentially none for black children, that last beyond second grade. It's basically a waste of money. How much? Only $7 billion a year. How long? Almost 50 years. That's 2% of the federal debt right there. Obviously, political left-wing extremists like the program because it is part of a system of rewards for local democrats who get to hand the money out (it is administered by HUD, not Dept. of Education for exactly that reason). What about the rest of the liberals? They are apparently lemmings that follow what the political extremists tell them (i.e., Donna Brazile: "It's for the CHILDREN!").
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  13. chemgator
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    chemgator Well-Known Member

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    Ohh, that's right! Voting for a (racist) black president was to SOLVE racism. And then there is the argument: there is good racism (black people not trusting white people) and bad racism (white people not trusting black people). Barack Obama is a good racist! Yay!!!
  14. vertigo0923
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    vertigo0923 night owl mod VIP Member

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    did any of us actually say that electing a bi-racial president would cure racism??? and a great big 'wtf' regarding your 'good racism/bad racism' statement. meaning, 'wtf' are you talking about?
  15. vertigo0923
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    vertigo0923 night owl mod VIP Member

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    and as for 'head start'....it has been very helpful for my son and my autistic grandson.
    that's just our experience
    and we can google and find various studies...some that are positive, some that aren't.
    so, i can rebut your negative diagnosis of the problem. and that proves, what, exactly?

    for example:

    One question the HHS study does answer definitively is whether Head Start does its job. The program gets at-risk children ready for kindergarten in every aspect the study measured. After one year in Head Start, children showed gains in vocabulary, letter-word identification, mathematics and social-emotional development compared with peers. In addition, parents involved with the program used more appropriate discipline and spent more time engaging in literacy activities with their children.
    These findings affirm the Head Start model in design and in practice. Head Start’s success over the decades has been built on evidence-based practices. The model, informed by programs like the Perry Preschool, an influential project that tracked children for decades, is constantly adapting ‑ using the best available science and teaching techniques to meet the needs of local communities.

    http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2012/12/27/does-head-start-work/

    The findings paint a picture of a successful program. Head Start participants show substantial improvements on test scores early in life — according to one recent study, these gains are only 20% smaller than those from other models. In adulthood, Head Start students are more likely to complete high school, attend college, and even have better health outcomes. They are less likely to have been charged with a crime or become a teenage parent.

    http://ideas.time.com/2013/03/05/the-case-for-saving-head-start/

    you want more? i got 'em.

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  16. Gatorrick22
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    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

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  17. Gatorrick22
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    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

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    Such anger in this post...
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  18. vertigo0923
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    vertigo0923 night owl mod VIP Member

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    seriously rick? anger in my post? i mean, seriously? That post? you're joking.

    (you're mistaking my bewilderment for anger, lol)

    [​IMG]
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  19. Gatorrick22
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    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

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    Lol... just playing around with you Verti.
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  20. beanfield
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    beanfield Active Member

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    Back to the original question...is it racism or reality??

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