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Discussion in 'Swamp Gas' started by NoahBeanBizzel, May 15, 2014.
Oh. I forgot. Our coach didn't learn anything from Nick Saban.....
The point benheb is trying to make, and I'm making is that while we know we're not "angels" (there are certainly some folks out there doing the hundred dollar handshakes and such at all major CFB schools including ours), it is far from the same thing as where there is an engrained culture of buying players through new cars and significant amounts of money, as well as bogus "jobs" and free tats, drugs, girls, etc.
Our school very actively tries to eliminate those things and even self reports (and gets dinged) on stuff like Sharriff Floyd receiving food and shelter in high school so he didn't starve in the street. And something completely unrelated to his recruitment or play at UF. Of course we also report more serious stuff like Tank Black back in the 90s. It doesn't mean nothing is happening - just that we try to do things right. And some schools are happy to let their supporters run wild while they turn a blind eye.
Even the two years prior to Muschamp. Pretty much ever since mullen left.
So he learned to "supposedly" cheat from him?
A program that is cheating is a totally different thing from having players out of control.
Schools cheat to win - schools want to control their players to win. Clean? I define clean as not cheating. Players taking drugs is a bad thing. The scandal in Hawaii was not that the three players smoked pot and got to play. They weren't allowed to play, but Meyer said they were injuried. Shocking... We are just like the rest... Except for the part where any other team would let them play.
I used to have pretty good "contacts" when SOS was the HBC. When "Free Shoes" was exposed in clown town, I asked an assistant coach what would happen IF he broke the rules?? His answer - fired on the spot... He was responsible for recruiting Anquan Boldin when AB's dad told him the morning of signing day that AB was a Gator!! Somehow between that conversation early on Signing Day - AB gets a "visit" and he puts the nolie hat on @ his high school.. My point is certain program's coaches are very involved in the "process" and a few follow the guidelines and try and win within NCAA rules....
Let's be honest. Muschamp is not a very good recruiter. It's not the cash, although we've probably lost a few to cash payments. It's Muschamp. As a recruiter, I would put him behind Meyer, Zook, and Spurrier. Muschamp also didn't give a lot of thought to offense, until it almost cost him his job. He was first and foremost a defensive coordinator, not a head coach. He recruited defense far better than he recruited for offense. Spurrier's reputation was built almost entirely on the offense, but he could still bring in players on defense. Muschamp saw some success in 2012 without much of an offense to speak of, so he apparently decided that offense was not important. Maybe he thought he could stare at his offensive players until they score enough points to win the game.
Add that in to the fact that Muschamp is not very good at developing players (especially on offense) or even recognizing talent, and you have multiple years of a low-performance offense, unable to crack the top-100.
Recruiting at UF should be extremely easy. A top-5 class should be a given, if you have the schollies to hand out. UF has great resources and facilities, is in the best state for HS football talent, AND plays in the most competitive conference in college football. No other school can say all three of those things. Muschamp has been able to overcome all of those advantages to be an average recruiter, especially on offense.
You seem to be exaggerating a little. I'll agree that he's not on Meyers level. I'll also agree that his first classe didn't focus on offense like it should've. Add in players leaving or being kicked off and that created a huge problem. The last two classes have been good on paper. That being said, Zook was not a better recruiter; at least not on paper. I'm also not ready to say Spurrier was better his first three seasons; coaching? Yes. Recruiting? No. I agree we have all the resources in the world to always recruit well so there are no excuses. As far as development, I'm going to put that not towards the issues we've had on the offensive staffing. Hard to develop with so much turnover; which is Muschamp's fault at the end of the day.
I also agree that Muschamp knows nothing about offense but I'd say the same about Saban. The difference is ones a great coach and the other isn't; hoping that changes this year.
You're correct, top 5 classes should pretty much be a given and Muschamp has averaged just that "his" 3 years recruiting. The biggest issues, one you touched on, is developing and keeping them. Hopefully both issues will be fixed with the new hires. If not, we'll have a new coaching staff.
Alabama, LSU, Auburn, Georgia, FSU, Miami, USC, Michigan, Notre Dame, Tennessee, OU, Texas, Texas A&M, etc all have the facilities, tradition, and conference affiliations to pull in top 5 recruiting classes. That's way more than 5 teams, so finishing in the top 5 is NOT a given. It takes a good recruiter to do that consistently, and Muschamp's classes, have been ranked fine.
The only issue has been offense. He has not recruited as well on offense as he needed too, and although he had a great 2013 class, and a pretty good 2014 class, I don't know if it will be enough to save him. If he does save his job, 2015 is also VERY important from an offensive perspective.
The other issue, is that to date, very few of Muschamp's players have made an impact on the team, especially on offense, and that speaks to development, or maybe, bad talent evaluation.
We'll have to see how that works out this year, since most of the team is his players now.
Props to the previous three posts - Chem, Tebowism, and Slayer. Good, solid discussion.
I don't know. Does Nick Saban cheat? That's what this entire board implies. He's never been caught....and neither has Will Muschamp...
I don't think Saban cheats or needs to cheat at this point.
Whether he (and the Bama athletic department more generally) turns a blind eye to what Bama boosters do could be an entirely different question, though.
That's what I was asking lol
I agree with Oak. Saban doesn't need to cheat.
To be totally fair, I think there is a fine line between cheating and incurring unacceptable risk. That line is clearer to UF than most institutions. We know we can do it without cheating and our leaders have really worked at taking political considerations out of the process i.e. Meyers didn't have a real choice with Cam Newton because the process UF has set up takes him out of the equation. Not so much with Alabama... Saban is a tool but he probably doesn't have the same set of unconditional rules that Muschamp has to follow.
The NCAA should work on making this risk assessment a no-brainer but big money drives everything in a big way. Their only interest is in keeping the cash flowing. As long as no one calls them out to affect their bottom line, they won't do anything about injustice - unless of course recognition of that injustice might impact cash flow. That's where FSU is caught in a bad place. The political climate that drives everything has changed and their "system" has ingested an athletically gifted clueless tool - they're recognizing that but can't easily backtrack on the decisions that have led them here. Just my extremely cynical opinion.... Most of the time in our country, this all works out but sometimes....
Only two of the schools you listed were in the state of Florida. And none of those two schools is in the SEC. Except for the Texas/Oklahoma schools and Southern Cal, all of the schools listed have to come to Florida and recruit in UF's back yard. The SEC is known as the most competitive conference that puts the most football players in the NFL.
The absolute ranking is not the most important thing to me. Having first choice of the players is. The recruiting rankings look at talent and physical ability of a player, not character. Urban Meyer was such a good recruiter at UF because he also looked at character. He got in on the best players early enough that he could get to know them and if they had character issues, he could decide if their abilities were worth taking a risk. Notice that the vast majority of Meyer's kids with character questions or academic issues (including Percy Harvin, Aaron Hernandez, John Brown, Jamar Hornsby, etc.) were 5-star players. Meyer typically didn't take chances on less capable players because he could choose from a large number of good and very good players and try to identify the ones that would contribute AND stay out of trouble. He felt the 5-star players were worth it, and could be managed effectively (or booted if they couldn't). Even Ron Zook's "huge" class of 2003 was down to nine players (plus a punter) by the end of 2006.
Also, by getting on the players early, and getting a feel for which ones he would get, Meyer was able to stack talent at multiple positions on offense and defense. He didn't get desperate and take 2-star and 3-star players just because he had a shortage at the position. It would be very unusual for Meyer to offer a #70-ranked WR, much less do it in May.
I will give Meyer this:
As a recruiter, he had a good record of getting high profile recruits on campus, and for the most part, keeping them on campus so they had a realistic chance of contributing. That being said, Meyer did NOT care about character. He cared about talent and winning. End of story. And to his credit, he was able to do that with 3 straight really strong recruiting classes from 2006-2008. That being said, his 2009 and 2010 classes, especially on offense, weren't anything to write home about, and that is part of the reason UF has struggled so much on offense the last few years. A lot of people questioned his talent evaluation after his offensive staff turned over in 2008. And I think it's easy to see at this point that clearly, there were some issues.
Muschamp has pretty much had his choice of defensive recruits. I don't think anyone can question that, other than his inability to close on more than one dominant edge rusher since he's been here. He will have the same ability on offense, once his offense on the field proves to be not inept.
Completely agree with everything you said (what happened to the "Agree" button?).
I've been very underwhelmed by the recruiting of WM. He puts together nice classes but the true difference makers are not coming here, at least not nearly enough of them. 2-3 blue-chippers per year is not enough when FSU, Bama, etc are getting 5+ each year. Too many of them, especially the ones from the state of FL, are going directly to our biggest rivals. He's had one exceptional offensive recruiting class (2013) in 4 tries. We got like 2 out of the top 25 state of FL players this past year? That's embarrassing and flat-out detrimental to our program's future.
And for emphasizing a "line of scrimmage league" as much as he does, it seems our worst recruiting and development on both sides of the ball is on the lines. Not sure what to make of that. Come to think of it, there's really only two positions where we've had lights-out recruiting and thats secondary and punter. And the on-field results have been mixed at best.
Same with developing players and implementing an offense - very underwhelming. So even if we were bringing in a better crop of players I'm not sure we'd have been in Atlanta anyhow.
Zook was pretty much better in all phases of head-coaching (but not in being a DC). He brought in a noticeably higher quality and quantity of players and got them producing on the field at a much higher rate and much earlier.
Zook DID NOT bring in higher quality players. I find it very comical the extent to what people will make things up because of their distaste for Muschamp. You cannot argue numbers to attempt to make an argument.
First and foremost SOS is a great coach but during his heyday here LSU,UGA,Ut and a few others had sub par coaches and he ate their lunch, However, he didn't fare well against halfassu. Meyer inherited a loaded team and he knew it. He always won early when he had just gone to another school Utah,Bowling Green, becasue he can coach but also because he had great athletes. Same is true at Florida.
We simply cannot get all of the players we covet for a number of reasons i.e. Numbers, academics, geography,, allegiance to other schools, our needs etc.The number of stars means squat to coaching staffs because it often takes a player two to three years to truly contribute, injuries slow players development too. We recruit very well and have routinely been in the top ten or bewtter in almost every year so don't whine but instead support the staff and players because these guys all chose to be Gators. Lots of great HS players are led to a team because of their HS coaches, family lack of maturity. We get our share and now need to coach them up.
Zook vs. Muschamp is debatable. Zook's teams were SOFT. And it cost Florida a lot of games in the 4th quarter.
Besides the brilliance of the LSU game, and two lucky games against UGA (back when UGA routinely crapped the bed against Florida) is really all that separates him from Muschamp. Zook NEVER would have gone 11-1 in the 2012 regular season.
Regarding the recruiting: I agree. The offensive recruiting has been sub par for Florida, and the contributions from Muschamp recruited players has been surprisingly nothing but ordinary except in the secondary.