Official NBA Finals Thread: SanAntonio Spurs vs. Miami Heat

Discussion in 'Nuttin' but Net' started by gatordavisl, Jun 5, 2014.

  1. antny
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    antny Well-Known Member

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    Agree to disagree. The fact that rally happened BEFORE they won anything is a problem in and of itself. Only an opinion but if you're going to make a fiasco out of joining a new team then you get the glory and consequence
  2. regurgigator
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    regurgigator VIP Member

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    I'm pretty indifferent to the whole discussion about how teams are put together. As long as no rules are broken, then I view it as the team was put together "the right way". Yes, it's great when a team you're rooting for is winning and the players can be kept together for years. But, I don't see that as being more "right" than great teams put together through good trades or free agency.

    It won't bother you if the tight end transfer that the Gators "cherry picked" this year turns out to be a key player in a winning season for us this year, will it? :cool:
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  3. Bedlam
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    Bedlam Well-Known Member

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    Kobe is 10x the 3-point shooter that MJ was. Kobe's %'s are low because his fatal flow is bad shot selection (i.e. trying 26 footers over a defender). MJ had only 2 seasons where he made more than 100 3's, and those were both during the 3 season stretch where the NBA moved the 3-point line into college range. Those were also his 2 highest % seasons. Kobe has 8 seasons with 100+, all at standard NBA range. Fact is, if that rule change never happened, MJ's career % would be in the 20's. He had a couple seasons where he was a decent 3 point shooter at the standard NBA range.

    Now do I think Kobe is better than MJ? No, of course not. But don't throw out crazy stuff like MJ is a better 3 point shooter than Kobe without actually knowing the topic.
  4. diamondted13
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    diamondted13 Active Member

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    I fully understand the topic and provided career averages to back it up. To say Kobe's 10x the 3 pt shooter that Jordan was suggests your not very good at math, when they are separated by less than 1 percentage point. It wasn't a strength of either player, despite Kobe proponents' revisionist views that Kobe was Dale Ellis/Dell Curry from 3 pt land. To make excuses for Kobe's low % by referencing shot selection is indicting the player your are trying to defend. The distance of the 3pt line is irrelevant to the conversation. But I'm glad Kobe can say he made more 3 pt shots than MJ. Good for him.
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  5. antny
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    antny Well-Known Member

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    1 or 2 transfers out of a starting 22 man roster isn't the same so no I wouldn't have a problem. If we were Kentucky basketball now then yes..I would
  6. regurgigator
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    regurgigator VIP Member

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    I think when Kobe was going for his 2nd 3-peat a lot of people were comparing him very closely to Jordan. I was very glad when Phil Jackson decided to leave the Lakers, because I thought with Phil that it was a very strong possibility that Kobe would match and even surpass Jordan's 6 rings and then all the "ring-knockers" would start putting Kobe in the GOAT conversation.

    Kobe is a great volume-shooting scorer, a great clutch scorer, and a great defender, but compared to Jordan, Kobe doesn't know how to play the game IMO. Jordan played the game beautifully, knowing when to push his otherworldy scoring talent and when to include others. Kobe has never figured that out.

    To me, Kobe is nowhere near the Top 10 all-time (unlike Shaq); maybe Top 20 or 25, but I haven't tried to go that far down the list.



    Good point about all the fans today who never saw some of the previous greats play. I forget how old I am sometimes. :cool: And, a lot of the hate for LeBron may be due to people who "grew up" with Jordan as their idol not wanting anyone in the future to be compared to that idol. Every generation has their sports idols that many of that generation don't want to admit may be rivaled (or - gasp! - even surpassed) by players in the future.
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  7. corpgator
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    corpgator Well-Known Member

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    Umm, shot selection is a huge part of what makes you a great 3 point shooter. Kobe has terrible shot selection, so he's not great. Kobe never went 6-6 in the finals like Jordan did.
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  8. corpgator
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    corpgator Well-Known Member

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    Selection bias. Kobe was never clutch unless you consider hitting 25% clutch.

    http://swishnba.com/2013/10/11/kobe-vs-lebron-whos-more-clutch/
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  9. regurgigator
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    regurgigator VIP Member

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    Thanks! Very interesting comparing stats with LeBron. I know I've seen Kobe hit some huge shots at huge moments in the playoffs, but maybe that was just earlier in his career in the Shaq years.

    I do remember clearly my impression that in the Lakers last championship, they won DESPITE Kobe who played awful IMO. It was kind of surprising in that in the earlier rounds of the playoffs that season, I thought Kobe was playing - by far - the best I'd ever seen: taking good shots and making good passes to his teammates when the defense doubled him. But, as soon as the Finals against Boston started, he reverted (and even regressed) to playing just about the worst I'd ever seen from him: taking (and missing repeatedly) contested awful shot after contested awful shot. It was so irksome to me to then see him applauded for winning another ring when it was definitely the Lakers team (despite Kobe) that had won.

    I wish they had included Jordan's stats in the comparisons. I've said before that I think Jordan should be given the nickname "Mr. Clutch" as I thought he'd surpassed even the great Jerry West in that category. I wonder if the stats would bear that out.
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  10. corpgator
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    corpgator Well-Known Member

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    Apparently he was about 50% on game winning or tying shots, which is way above average especially for how many he took, but the stats weren't tracked then like they are now. At one point, Kobe had 54 game tying or winning shots and 0 assists to win or tie the game. That's pretty absurd. Me first all the way.
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  11. diamondted13
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    diamondted13 Active Member

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    Wow. I didn't realize just how big the disparity was. It just goes to show how clueless and/or agenda-driven the media is...and how perception becomes reality. Great article.
  12. bakaduin
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    bakaduin Moderator

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  13. corpgator
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    corpgator Well-Known Member

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    Year after year the team Paul was on was the only team to not have their offense get worse during clutch time when everyone gets tight and the defense digs in. That's because he plays the game the same way no matter what the clock says: probe probe probe and pass or score depending on what the teams all game long.
  14. regurgigator
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    regurgigator VIP Member

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    You may be right, but I wouldn't have thought of Paul as a choker.

    I still think back in amazement at how good Paul was against the Lakers in the playoffs a few years when he was still with New Orleans. New Orleans lost, but the best player by far in that series was Paul.
  15. regurgigator
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    regurgigator VIP Member

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    That certainly tracks with my perception. The guy was money in last second, game-on-the-line situations.
  16. Bedlam
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    Bedlam Well-Known Member

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    That literally has nothing to do with what I said. But ok...
  17. Bedlam
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    Bedlam Well-Known Member

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    How is padding your stats with a 3-point line 3 feet closer not relevant to the conversation? I can see I'm dealing with people who can't see something objectively. I'll see my way out and continue the MJ circle jerk in here.
  18. diamondted13
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    diamondted13 Active Member

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    Okay, Mr. Objectivity, let's try this again with facts and statistics. The 3-pt line was moved in from 23'9" to a uniform 22 ft all the way around for the 94-95, 95-96, and 96-97 seasons. Please note it has always been 22 ft from the corners. That is 21" closer, not 3 ft (36"). Once again, your math skills are dubious.

    Let the record show that Jordan played all of 17 games in 94-95 (after a 2 yr hiatus), and that Kobe was already in the league in 96-97. So basically, Jordan had one season (95-96) of a closer 3 pt line than Kobe throughout a 15 year career. For the record, 3pt% for each player in 96-97 (Jordan .374, Kobe .375). 10x better by your math. It also happened to be each player's 2nd best season %-wise from 3pt range, so both players benefited statistically.

    Also noteworthy, Kobe has attempted 3,117 more 3's than MJ in just 173 more career games. So, needless to say, it was a more prominent part of his offensive game. Yet, somehow, he was only .07% more efficient for his career than MJ. And again, Kobe's not done playing and trending downward %-wise the past few seasons. If you think his shot selection has been questionable, it's only going to get worse. Needless to say, we can add b-ball IQ and shot selection as additional intangibles were Jordan was superior.

    One last thing. This thread has been far from an MJ circle jerk. I've actually been a LeBron apologist through most of it. But I think just about everyone is united in feeling Kobe doesn't belong in the conversation.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2014
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