OFFICIAL: George Zimmerman Trial Thread Week 3

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by DaveFla, Jul 8, 2013.

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  1. akaijenkins1
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    akaijenkins1 Active Member

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    No way to prove he knew TM was black BUT it does state that GZ aligned TM with the previous break-ins and those perps were identified as black. Am I remembering that correctly?

    Also, a hoodie doesn't obscure the face as much as the reportage makes it seem. TM was also on the phone, holding it to his face, this would either make his hand exposed and or his face as he placed both hand and phone within the fold of the hoodie. Even getting that specific is odd though: you can tell a black kid from a white kid in that situation. I don't think that's worth debating. Actually, see the transcript below.

    I'm speaking for myself here but I also think it applies to a larger pop as well that legally I understand how this should resolve itself in GZ's favor but culturally there's much to it that I'm upset by. I think the cultural underpinnings of how and why this happened (and the impression it leaves) are just as important as the result of this trial.

    Not to discount GZ's or TM's lives, but this grew beyond them the moment it hit the news cycle so I think an honest cultural examination of the cause and effect here is just as important as the legal examination. What I mean by that is, we need to look at this...


    ...and break down what role culture lead in moving from that to GZ and TM fighting and TM ultimately being killed.

    Because the one thing we know to be true is... TM was not armed and was not committing a crime, there was NOTHING in his freaking waist band and he was not getting away with anything. The other thing we know is that GZ followed him (by his own admission) and that after TM beat him in a fist fight GZ shot him.

    The thing I keep coming back to is, if these two pass each other on the sidewalk, TM continues walking while GZ, with a gun in his waistband, turns back and says, "What are you doing here?"

    The counterpoint is, TM answers with who he is and why he belongs there and both go on their way. Fine, but I can't see that as anything other than victim blaming, since I have to refer to the dead guy who was minding his business before this began as the victim. It also negates the circumstantial evidence that GZ could potentially have made known he was armed while stating his position as authority figure and doing the questioning of this person he feared, we simply will never know. The cultural why is important though.
  2. MichiGator2002
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    The SYG statute as such is basically just a way to dispose of a case in a pre-trial motion. The basic self-defense calculus is the same as at trial, but it's like what you saw the defense doing in a JOA motion during the trial -- before the trial, they say to the judge, "Judge, even if X, Y, Z, the defendant was entitled to use force under the self-defense statute, so let's save ourselves some time and not have a trial". Basically.

    Would have to be a pretty well-contrived situation, though. How many people are out there roaming the streets, knowing they want to kill someone, and so trying to entice them into starting a fight in which they use deadly force? Remember, duty to retreat or not, the right to lethal force is still contingent on it being in response to lethal force. And the defense -- in motion or at trial -- still needs to make the prima facie showing of self-defense to be entitled to claim it.
  3. g8tr80
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    g8tr80 Well-Known Member

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    Nope. He just needs to lay low for a year or so. Like Casey Anthony, we tend to forget real quick and move on to the next big thang.
  4. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Zimmerman said he looks black because he was asked. Nothing else worth discussing on that point.
  5. gatornana
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    gatornana Administrator

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    The legal talking heads here are saying the aggressor has no duty to retreat.
  6. gator85jd
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    Let's say Zimmerman approaches Trayvon and demands to know who he is and what he's doing there and Trayvon swings and hits Zimmerman in the nose, breaking it and putting Zimmerman on the ground. Then Trayvon stands there and laughs at Zimmerman. In that scenario, Zimmerman is not allowed to respond with deadly force. Since, according to Zimmerman, Trayvon was continuing his attack, the response was escalated allowing an escalated response from Zimmerman.

    I'm no fan of Zimmerman, but he is entitled to a fair trial.
  7. icequeen
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    icequeen Well-Known Member

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    I don't think he makes it that long until someone decides to do some "payback" and kills him or goes after his family. I'm still firmly of the belief he and his entire family - parents, wife, siblings - need to get out. Go to Latin America, go to Puerto Rico, anywhere. But if they stay in the US, especially on the East coast, they're going to spend the rest of their lives in fear of something happening or dealing with stuff that really IS happening.
  8. Speedofsand
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  9. MichiGator2002
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    I'm not a full-on Max Headroom head, but I'm still one of those stress ball head sized talking heads. We were discussing earlier that the state could have in theory pursued the matter by seeking the initial aggressor instruction, where Zimmerman would have had a duty to retreat before he could have used deadly force in self-defense.
  10. akaijenkins1
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    akaijenkins1 Active Member

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    Yes, but to me it's important that there's a record acknowledging that he knew he was black, I only mentioned it because the other poster posed the question of whether GZ knew.

    The other statements in the transcript tell much more in my opinion, the things about "the waistband, he looks suspicious, he's running, I don't know him." To me those things say a hell of lot more about GZ than they do TM at that point.

    Waistband? Really?
  11. gatornana
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    I'm glad to know I'm mistaken.....I truly was disturbed at the thought that the initial aggressor had no duty to retreat. I was under the impression that part of the defense law was dumped a while back. That has been mentioned by legal talking heads on the local news through out the trial.
  12. ncgatr1
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    The whole issue is that whoever started the fight is irrelevant because it's an assumption. The physical facts are the only concrete evidence the jury has. The sensationalism case that the prosecution has presented looks to be out of desperation. Throw in the fact that they are trying for a lesser charge in the bottom of the ninth is a strong indication to the jury that they know their case is weak. I am very surprise the defense didn't exploit this to their advantage.
  13. akaijenkins1
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    akaijenkins1 Active Member

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    Mispost
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  14. MichiGator2002
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    No, the initial aggressor does.

    So Urban Meyer turns to crime and comes to mug you by threatening to slap you with a sardine. You have no duty to retreat. In fact, feel free to pull out your own sardine and slap him.

    If, however, you pull out Sharknado, he does have a duty to retreat, but if he has made the reasonable effort, he can use his own Sharknado on you.
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  15. icequeen
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    icequeen Well-Known Member

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    Okay THAT'S funny as all.....and I will rep as soon as it lets me rep you again!!!!!!!!
  16. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Well, it's irrelevant because there's not going to be an instruction on the aggressor rules anyway.
  17. gatornana
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    gatornana Administrator

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    :laugh: Thanks! That makes more sense.....Sharknado and sardines, too!
  18. gator85jd
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    gator85jd New Member

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    Or you could quickly put on a Nick Saban mask, causing Urban to curl up in the fetal position and cry out for Shelly. ; )
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  19. Speedofsand
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    Speedofsand New Member

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    I'm surprised the jury is instructed not to compare notes.
  20. squigator
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    Sharknado? Did you watch that crap last night?
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