Obesity Is Not Killing Us ...

Discussion in 'Gator Country Health and Fitness' started by Dreamliner, Jan 12, 2013.

  1. ATL_Gator
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    ATL_Gator Well-Known Member

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    MeyerIsBack... I thought you were a guy. Imagine my surprise in reading the "I had a baby" bit! :)

    I have this same question, plus some others about the actual study (and my skepticism about it)... I have not found a link to the actual study that isn't a paid link, unfortunately. And it doesn't intrigue me enough to pull out the wallet.
  2. MeyerIsBack
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    MeyerIsBack Premium Member

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    I am a guy. I said that wrong. My wife had a baby. we both work, so we have shared the baby responsibilities.
  3. ATL_Gator
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    ATL_Gator Well-Known Member

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    AAHH.. Gotcha.

    PHEW. Thought for a second I was going crazy. All is right in my brain again... well, maybe "right" isn't the correct term.
  4. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    Just google 'jama ovesity' or 'cdc obesity.' They're all over the place.

    Or spare yourself the trouble and reckon with the obvious fact that we're getting fatter and fatter and living (actively) longer and longer.
  5. MeyerIsBack
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    MeyerIsBack Premium Member

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    I google CDC obesity and found this
    http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/adult/causes/index.html
    What are the consequences of overweight and obesity?
    Health Consequences
    Research has shown that as weight increases to reach the levels referred to as "overweight" and "obesity,"* the risks for the following conditions also increases:1
    Coronary heart disease
    Type 2 diabetes
    Cancers (endometrial, breast, and colon)
    Hypertension (high blood pressure)
    Dyslipidemia (for example, high total cholesterol or high levels of triglycerides)
    Stroke
    Liver and Gallbladder disease
    Sleep apnea and respiratory problems
    Osteoarthritis (a degeneration of cartilage and its underlying bone within a joint)
    Gynecological problems (abnormal menses, infertility)
    *Overweight is defined as a body mass index (BMI) of 25 or higher; obesity is defined as a BMI of 30 or higher. For more, see Defining Obesity.
  6. MeyerIsBack
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    MeyerIsBack Premium Member

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    We don't live in a vacuum.
  7. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    You're propensity to gain weight could well be behavioral and/or emotional. Most people aren't very active. Many if not most are emotional eaters. Add activity, eat when hungry, stop when satisfied, find other outlets for stress and boredom ... and I suspect many will settle into their happy, healthy weight.

    BUT, your attitude on obesity needs some adjustment. We KNOW that obesity is genetic. There is no longer any question about this. And I myself had to overcome my inbred predjudices and reexamine the stereotypes about obese people. Ex: obese people I know are manifestly NOT lazy. Nor do they just shovel food down.

    You might become more compassionate when you realize that attitudes like I used to harbor, like you still harbor, are likely at the root of why many obese people are actually deeply disenchanted with the way they look and are frequently trying (and failing) to get the weight off. It may also be at the root of why they medicate themselves. And the medications may also cause weight gain.

    In point of fact, anti-anxiety meds and antidepressants my be THE primary cause of weight gain across the board. It's not like we've become less active since 1980. We haven't.
  8. MeyerIsBack
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    MeyerIsBack Premium Member

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    Very well

    I don't know this. You may.

    Are you saying that being overweight is not the result of a caloric surplus. You can call it what you like.

    So you are saying it is my fault people are fat. Good God man. I have no words

    It's possible
  9. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I'm saying that prevailing cultural attitudes strongly play into the attitudes of fat people. That is to say that they are acutely aware that you think they look ugly.

    Yes, fat people require caloric surpluses to reach their existing weights. And this is something that you ought to be able to identify with. It is a very powerful unconscious drive that cause you to tend towards your heavier weight. And it takes an enormous amount of discipline to maintain the lower weight. Might this pronounced (seemingly unfair) balance constitute evidence that your body knows what it wants to weigh ?

    Remember that I experience the reverse problem. It seems natural to be skinny. It seems unnatural to be as little as ten pounds heavier. I feel like I'm having to stuff myself.

    Don't forget, in all of this, that we now know that not only is obesity genetic (you seem close to acknowledging this), we also know that obesity is not unhealthy, per se.
  10. MeyerIsBack
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    MeyerIsBack Premium Member

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    When did I say that I think overweight people look ugly?

    It is something I can identify with. I can also identify with caloric deficits. As well as a caloric balance.

    From my experience you are greatly overstating this. It is something a person is willing to do or is not willing to do.

    I think it is evidence that we eat more calories and move less.


    I don't believe either of these things nor am I close to believing them. I actually have a post earlier in this thread from the CDC that lists the problems caused by obesity.
  11. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    You said you "have no sympathy for obesity." You must find it repulsive on some level.

    Fat people are typically *willing* to be thin. And they typically try to be thin more often that people like me try to be more muscular. Is it possible that you are *understating* the problem ?

    Never mind others. Thinks about you. You don't have to try to stay slightly pudgy. You have to try to stay lean.

    Yes, people tend to eat more than they need and possibly move less than should. But again, the body ramps up hunger and literally slows you down to maintain weight. And in fact, when you lose weight, not only does hunger tend to increase but general activity levels decrease. It's all part-and-parcel of survival mechanisms.
  12. malligator
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    malligator Well-Known Member

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    Tomorrow (2/1/13) will by the 3 year anniversary of my transformation. On 2/1/10 I was 290 and am now 200 (heading to 180). It is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life and I know that keeping it off will be a major task for the rest of my life. I gain weight ridiculously easily so I have to be ever vigilant to keep it off. With all the peaks and valleys of my body weight over the last three years I've probably lost 200 pounds total to get here.

    Dream, I know the numbers aren't in my favor for keeping it off, but I'll work everyday to make sure I'm one of the few that do. I agree with your natural weight belief, though. Sometimes I want to binge so godam bad I can't stand it. All you naturally skinny sumbitches :))) can believe I have no willpower, but until you've been fat you have no idea what real cravings feel like. :)
  13. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    And please understand that I'm saying more power to you. Obviously, some are successful. I hope, for your sake, that you're one of them.

    But obviously it is not a natural state of affairs, white-knuckling to keep your weight well under where your body wants and needs to be.
  14. MeyerIsBack
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    MeyerIsBack Premium Member

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    Again I never used the word 'ugly' nor is it even in the realm of my discussion here; so,you are putting words in my mouth. Just like the word 'repulsive'. 'Sympathy' (the word I used) is lacking because I believe someone's weight is the direct result of lifestyle choices.

    I would love for you to expand on the word 'trying'. I have yet to meet a person who is overweight that can't lose weight. Surely, there are challenges but only a very few cannot be overcome.

    What is so bad about having to put a little effort or thought into maintaining health? I would also argue that we are fighting against cultural norms to remain healthy. If we could change these norms, it would make it easier for everyone to remain healthy.

    A caloric deficit tends to cause a decrease in the amount of calories burned. However, the slow down in calorie burning is small compared to the deficit. The result is a caloric deficit, AKA, weight loss.


    -----
    What exactly are you suggesting?

    I think you are saying that people should never worry about weight because it is not controllable. Also, you seem to be suggesting that there are no health implications to being overweight (this obviously ignores common scientific beliefs). Please correct me if I am wrong. And what is this 'healthy fat' you seem to be promoting?

    What about young people?

    Should we forget about teaching them to eat healthy and exercise because 'their body' is already predetermined to be the weight it is going to be?

    It is like you believe people are powerless against food/fat. I am not buying it.
  15. MeyerIsBack
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    MeyerIsBack Premium Member

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    Congrats. You obviously have willpower if you have made it this far.
  16. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    I just don't think the facts fit your simplistic views on bodyshape. You're defensive, as I was, and are straining to avoid the implications of the evidence.

    And you're still missing the point on weight-loss. Nobody said you can't lose weight. Damn near everyone can lose weight SHORT-TERM. Almost nobody can keep it off for any appreciable amount of time. You seem to acknowledge the weight-loss maintenance issue yet continue to seek refuge in the notion of short-term weight-loss.

    Who said don't exercise ? As far as I'm concerned, exercise has documented health benefits. BUT the problem with exercise is that recidivism is as high as with weight-loss. Better that most should find an activity they enjoy, which may be as simple as walking.

    Finally, what is 'eating healthy' ? Is eating to lose weight, then gaining it back, eating to lose weight, then gaining it back, eating to lose weight, then gaining it back ... healthy ?
  17. MeyerIsBack
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    MeyerIsBack Premium Member

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    I suppose I oppose your view point strongly. If that makes me 'defensive' about my 'simplistic views' then so be it. And yes I do fail to see the implications of this evidence in the same light as you because I certainly don't draw the same conclusions as you do.

    There has been a whole lot going on in this thread. Discussions about 'genetic obesity' and predetermined body types. Those terms suggest to me that a physiological incapability to lose weight exists. There may be a disconnect in my interpretation.

    I certainly acknowledge the failure rate in maintaining weight loss. I just strongly disagree that the solution is to just accept obesity. I actually thought one of the better suggestions I have ever heard was yours about sustainable changes.

    My apologies. I agree that activity is an important factor to a healthy lifestyle.

    Eating healthy is eating at maintenance. In a perfect world people would be at a healthy weight and not gaining or losing. Also, food should provide the proper nutrients; which is not nearly as complicated as people make it (IMO).
  18. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    I understand that this 'new paradigm' is off-putting. It seems like giving up. I call it wising up. And it would be one thing for me to say "Obesity is bad, too bad you can't lose weight and keep it off", and another to say "Obesity is not bad, so why are you hell-bent on losing all that weight ?"

    I'm saying the facts point to the latter.

    Keep your eye on the ball. The issue is not short-term weight loss but rather the inability of willpower to override, for any length of time, the very powerful, unconscious drive to maintain fixed weight-range.

    No need to apologize on the exercise. Indeed, I've been a little chippy myself and apologize for that.

    And we may not be far apart on what healthy eating constitutes. If, as I suspect, the body is wired to maintain a fixed weight-range, then eating healthy would be not stressing about one's lot, eating the foods they enjoy (1) when hungry (2) and stopping when satisfied.
  19. MeyerIsBack
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    MeyerIsBack Premium Member

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    Maybe our disconnect is that I don't draw the conclusion that obesity is healthy. If I believed obesity was healthy then I would probably agree with your other assessments.

    I still really think the facts overwhelmingly point to obesity being unhealthy.

    I will again point you to the CDC site that you seem to trust: http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/adult/causes/index.html

    I agree about long term weight loss maintenance failing often. It is an issue. However, I think it needs a solution, whereas, you think it is reason to not try. Until we agree on the consequences of being obese, this discussion will just continue to spin.


    I agree but these sensations are hard for people to recognize.

    If you believed obesity was unhealthy what would be your approach to obesity?

    What is your take on childhood obesity?
  20. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    CDC was forced to back down, in 2005, from their dire pronouncements:

    http://www.obesitymyths.com/myth2.7.htm

    So, if obesity is not unhealthy, why do we need a 'solution' ?

    But even if I did believe that obesity is unhealthy, how could I entice people into doing something (losing weight) which they find so frustrating and stressful ? We're all going to die. Why should people torment themselves even if they believed it might by them 2-3 years ?

    Childhood obesity = adult obesity. If adult obesity is not unhealthy, why should child obesity be unhealthy ? BUT, the notion of a child obesity epidemic rests on the same flawed assumptions that spawned the fake adult obesity crisis. On average, Americans have gotten slightly heavier, which has shifted the bell curve slightly to the right of the arbitrary cutoff point based on the dubious metric which is BMI.

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