Obesity Is Not Killing Us ...

Discussion in 'Gator Country Health and Fitness' started by Dreamliner, Jan 12, 2013.

  1. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    Remember that setpoint isn't my theory. I believe it was first propounded by Friedman, the guy who discovered leptin, and I believe it, or something like it, best fits the weight-rebound phenomenon.

    I just think it's to easy to imagine that everybody just goes off the rails due to flagging willpower. I believe that willpower is neither here nor there. I strongly suspect that our bodies know better than we, our fitness trainers, our nutritionists, our doctors and the government where it wants to be.

    And it does not appear to matter how precipitously weight is lost. Rather, it appears to do with *how much* weight is lost.

    Remember too that it is not a case of 'so many' regaining weight. Based on the studies, it's closer to 'nearly everyone' than to 'so many.'

    Finally, I used to react almost violently to the very argument I'm advancing now. I'd point to the National Weight Control Registry and cite its thousands of members who've lost thirty pounds or more and kept it off for a year or more.

    But I no longer find this impressive. And the when you delve into the methods various members employ to maintain that modest success, a sobering picture emerges: members typically attest they think about food all the time. They have to be vigilant every day. They continue to count calories even after a year. They continue to be stringent with respect to food choices. And they tend to get prodigious amounts of exercise.
  2. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    WHAT I AM NOT SAYING: I am not saying that people can't lose weight. I am more than happy to believe that most fat people binge eat, and that if they learn to eat normally - and if they add movement to the mix - people like that will almost certainly lose weight ACCIDENTALLY.

    I just believe that dieting is working from the wrong end of the stick and only serves to play into the problem. Our efforts to turn fat people into thin people has been a spectacular failure. And I myself am chastened to have been a part of it.
  3. ATL_Gator
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    ATL_Gator Well-Known Member

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    Because someone makes the decision to be stringent with food choices doesn't mean that the body is physically needing the item.

    I want a dozen krispy kreme donuts (glazed, hot, fresh). Could eat a dozen every Friday. I decide NOT to indulge in 12 of them a week because the calories is not worth it.

    I highly doubt there is a SINGLE thing in those donuts that I physically need to survive. In fact, I bet there is absolutely nothing redeeming about them.
  4. ATL_Gator
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    ATL_Gator Well-Known Member

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    I would argue that someone intentionally choosing to eat normally most days of the month instead of binge eating most days of the month doesn't lose anything accidentally.
  5. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    I suspect you're answering your own questions. Cravings are your body. It's not something you invented. Go with the flow. Best way to deal with cravings: indulge them.

    It is not being especially stringent to savor a donut or two, not twelve, and leave the store feeling like a human being.

    No, no one needs donuts to survive. But you can damn well be sure that Paleolithic dudes would have eaten them were they available in their time. They're goddamned yummy. And I'd be the first to argue that we have an innate taste for sweets. We have taste buds and they are fearfully and wonderfully made.
  6. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    I'm saying that weight loss shouldn't be the goal. No use setting people up for disappoint if eating more intuitively does NOT result in weight loss.
  7. LeafUF
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    LeafUF Well-Known Member

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    Is it really so unacceptable to watch what one eats to maintain weight loss? I mean people can make better choices and continue to be vigilant without being extreme. You make it sound like people who maintain their weight loss are only doing so out of an unhealthy overwhelming obsession with every morsel of food. It doesn't seem to be the case in Atls experience.
  8. ATL_Gator
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    ATL_Gator Well-Known Member

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    I disagree.

    I think cravings are my memories of the deliciousness and me wanting to experience it again... and again... and again... and again... and again... repeat... until I feel pain, or run out of product, or go beyond a cost threshold.

    And I do indulge when I have a craving. One or two never hurt anyone. :)
  9. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    Why should anyone have to 'watch what they eat' ? Why shouldn't people eat whatever the hell foods they want, including donuts ? Who invented the rule that we have to 'make better choices' and be 'vigilant' ?
  10. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    I know. You're the guy who said the eigth slice of pizza tasted as good as the first. Maybe you're just a freak of nature.
  11. ATL_Gator
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    ATL_Gator Well-Known Member

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    They should choose to eat what ever foods they want.. but choosing to eat too much and gaining weight as a result shouldn't be a surprise.
  12. ATL_Gator
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    ATL_Gator Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the 8th is just as delicious as the first.

    I do not deny the possibility that I am off. Most of the time, I am quite certain of it.
  13. LeafUF
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    LeafUF Well-Known Member

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    Did I say people can't eat what they want? I think people should eat donuts and cookies even. But I don't have a problem with people watching how many they eat and how often. I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Because its starting to sound like you are in the business of simply keeping people the way they are. Do you tell your clients to just do what they are doing and make no changes?
  14. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    ... which is entirely consistent with what I've been saying all along. Apparently, you're doing a bang-up job learning to eat to satiety as opposed to stopping when it starts coming through your nostrils. I know you liked the eighth slice of pizza, but even you had to draw the line there. :wink:
  15. ATL_Gator
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    ATL_Gator Well-Known Member

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    yeah, that line was drawn just because the pizza box was empty. :) Physical restraint.

    LOL.

    Ok, I need to go to bed. 4:30 AM sucks. Going to need some extra coffee.
  16. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    And like I just told ATL, this is entirely consistent with what I'm saying. To summarize:

    weight-loss maintenance stats are ABYSMAL. So, rather than jumping to the conclusion that everybody just sucks, or the naive assumption that they just didn't choose the right diet, rather than inviting people to lose weight, maybe fitness trainers should concentrate on fitness and inviting people to eat when hungry and stop when satisfied.

    Anticipated result: happier, healthier clients who won't be even heavier five years from now because of the diets we put them on.

    Look, I'm trying to save our clients from the therapists, which is where they're going more and more. For all the harm the fitness and diet industry has done, the therapeutic model has probably been even more ruinous.

    Let's be the people who invite people of all shapes and sizes to love the bodies they have, enjoy the food they eat and also help them to recapture lost vigor.
  17. LeafUF
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    LeafUF Well-Known Member

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    I guess maybe I am a little naive then because I do think that people can reach their goals and maintain them with the right plan. I also happen to think if people are happy with how they look, feel and move they wont be coming to see us anyway. So, I am not going to start off a journey with a client by telling them that they shouldn't have the goal of weight loss if that is indeed what they want. I will help them turn those goals into something reasonable and attainable and I will try to educate them on other factors that I think are more important than a scale number, finding an exercise program and dieting style that is enjoyable and sustainable first and foremost. In fact, when I meet with my clients now I always ask if they are enjoying their food.
  18. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    Of course people can reach their weight-loss goals *short-term.* People do that all the time. They don't even need a fitness trainer to do that. But again, of what use is short-term weight-loss ? Maybe we can hit up the people who just want to lose weight for their highschool reunion ?

    Why aren't we asking why people aren't happy with the way they look ? And why are we playing into the by now obvious myth that "thinner = happier" ?

    Helping people to lose weight is an excellent way to ensure that they get heavier (and probably less healthy). Physicians have to take an oath that enjoins them to "do no harm." Maybe we fitness trainers need to take a similar oath.
  19. fbgator27
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    You say thinner is happier is a myth. For some individuals it may be true. In fact reading some of the three of you go back and forth it sounds like it is one of the driving forces in your quest to staying fit. It seems we are trying to fit everyone into a nice big group, and telling them one philosophy will save us all. We should not be so quick to hear someone say I want to lose weight and to tell them they are wrong for wanting that before we know why.

    Maybe we should spend more time listening to our clients and less trying to regurgitate someone's opinion on a piece of research. You have to be careful about reading someone's take on a research article and claim it the next truism. There is a lot of bad info going around in all industries of health care and fitness.

    For instance. If you read the study that is referenced in the op the data actually says overweight persons have a lower mortality not obese people. Obese BMIs have a 1.21/1 ratio of mortality compared Bmi under 25. If you look at slightly obese people only, the numbers are virtually the same as normal weight not lower. Really the only thing you can take from the results is BMI is not really a good measure of mortality. That is not the same as saying obesity causes us to live longer. Just says we havent done a good job of quantifying obesity.
  20. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    You are at liberty to help people lose weight because they think it will make them happier (be prepared to watch them gain it back). I'm a libertarian. I believe people should be able to commit suicide if that's what they really want to do. That doesn't mean I'm volunteering to shoot them though.

    The studies may be parsed to show that the lower portion of the obese category is the very longest-lived. They may also be parsed to show that the lower half of normal weight die sooner, particularly those who exercise! Additionally, whereas I'm aware of no study that shows weight loss enhancing longevity, their is evidence that weight loss may shorten life.

    Additionally, study after study suggests that obesity does indeed confer some protection. This is what has researchers scratching their heads over the 'Obesity Paradox' in the first place.

    In any case, there is no 'obesity crisis.' But we do know that there is an unrelenting social pressure to be thin. You can aid and abet that and I'll watch. And this is coming from a thin person.

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