Obesity Is Not Killing Us ...

Discussion in 'Gator Country Health and Fitness' started by Dreamliner, Jan 12, 2013.

  1. LeafUF
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    LeafUF Well-Known Member

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    I am completely with you that I exercise and try to stay fit(lean, healthy, whatever you want to call it) for vanity and performance reasons. I want to be able to lift heavy things compared to my BW and I want to look good. Even if those things are counter to my health I would do this and in some cases they are. As I know you are familiar with as well, RSIs, tendonitis and just general aches and pains from certain lifts are pretty common.

    Now, I do feel better overall than I did a few years ago when I was out of shape and miserable. Doesnt mean everyone would feel the same, some people probably get sore from a workout and decide that exercise isnt for them.
  2. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    Even in the face of these shocking, revelatory statistics, in the end ... we're all going to die. Having reckoned with the new information, I'm liable to tell people that if all they want to do is eke out a few more months of living than their neighbor, be chubby. But if they want to look, feel and move better, I can help.

    Now, I probably don't need to be that blunt right now. The conventional wisdom is that it's bad to be overweight. I don't expect any of that to change soon. But I want to be more circumspect with regards to claims made for weight loss and exercise. And I'm hoping that there are lots of people out there who will appreciate that sort of honesty.

    And due to the withering social pressure to lose weight and be thin, I can actually see people paying me to give them permission not to lose weight. And of course even in those cases there might be ample opportunity to turn my attention to helping them to regain the strength and mobility of their youth. I can tell you that, for myself, I find that as least as gratifying as being lean.
  3. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    I would further venture that not only is it not the case that obesity is killing us, we are not in fact experiencing an obesity epidemic. The government has established an arbitrary dividing line between overweight and obese - a BMI of 30. If you're under the number, you're merely overweight. If you're over the number you're obese. Sorry. Word of advice: don't go to a doctor until you get your BMI down to 29.5. Yes, he'll nag you. But he may not load you down with drugs.

    So, as Americans have gained, on average, around ten pounds since the 'epidemic' began (they've also grown nearly an inch taller), that's shifted tens of millions of Americans to the right of the line. And so researchers look at the adjusted numbers and shriek, "WTF ? Look at all those obese people! Where the F*** did they come from ?!?!"
  4. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    I can say that these obesity studies have pretty much driven a nail in the coffin of the 'before and after pic' concept. Basically, anyone can lose weight, but almost no one can keep it off long-term. And I am no longer convinced that this is chiefly due to sliding back into old habits. Bodyfat levels are almost certainly genetic. Lose a bunch of it and your body wants it back.
  5. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    So, to review ...

    *The 'Obesity Crisis' amounts to a moral panic manufactured by the people who have a vested interest in their findings as they are supported by Big Pharma and the dieting industry.

    *The dangers of obesity have been vastly overstated and the advantages of obesity given short shrift.

    *People are being badgered into losing weight, in spite of the near uniform failure in terms of maintained weight-loss, and are likely being set up for future weight gain and quite possibly eating disorders.

    Thanks!
  6. ATL_Gator
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    ATL_Gator Well-Known Member

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    I have seen you talk about "sustained weight loss" in a few posts now...

    Can you clarify that. What would you define as sustained.

    My peak weight was 265. I have been 210 or below with a significantly leaner (though not "LEAN") body for almost a decade.

    Granted I get small fluctuations in weight, I haven't been remotely close to my peak weight in that time frame (future weight gain), and I HIGHLY doubt I suffer from any sort of eating disorder.
  7. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    It may be one of the best-attested facts in literature that people are almost uniformly unable to maintain more than a 5-10% loss in bodyweight for an appreciable length of time.

    I personally believe that the 'setpoint theory' may be true. That is, your body knows the weight it wants to be and will eventually 'defend' that weight when more than 10-15 pounds is lost. It 'gets the weight back' by means of ramping up hunger and ramping down satiety.

    THAT SAID - and this may go to your question - it doesn't appear that disordered eaters have any idea what tneir setpoint is until they reach the point where they're eating intuitively and thereby give their body the opportunity to 'find it's weight.'

    Some people, I'm sure, are under-eating. And I'm equally confident that others are overeating.

    Ex: a recent client of mine was an acknowledged stress-eater. As soon as he got a handle on that he: (1) likely stemmed future weight gain and (2) lost about fifteen pounds and settled in there. In his case, he lost weight more or less accidentally. Others are likely to gain some weight at which point they let go and give themselves permission to savor the foods they enjoy, eating when hungry and stopping when satisfied.

    I myself no longer invite people to lose weight or gain weight.
  8. ATL_Gator
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    ATL_Gator Well-Known Member

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    Unable to maintain weight loss/gain. Eating disorder. And what I can imagine "set point theory" is...

    In my opinion... 98% mental inability, 2% physical inability.

    I recognized that there exists REAL physical limitations.

    That said, there is a reason a person's day may go like this:
    Breakfast: 2x toaster waffle with syrup and butter, glass of OJ
    9-10 AM: Bagel with cream cheese, coffee with easily 10% of the cup volume sugar, 10% cup volume half/half
    Lunch: Wendy's dollar menu: 2x jr bacon cheeseburger, fries, frosty
    Afternoon: Snickers with a 20oz coke.
    Dinner: A couple of slices of pizza and a coke.
    Snack: Ice Cream

    Either:
    MENTALLY INEPT to realize that the calories ingested FAR EXCEEDS what is needed to sustain 200 lb, far exceeds what is needed to sustain a current weight of 260 lb, and is probably what is required for 325 lb.

    OR

    Realizes all the above, and either chooses to not care (mental) or does it because he knows that he can try to change the habits but just fall back into them after a few weeks (not mentally strong enough).

    ....

    I wish I could tell you that I made up that scenario... but, that was me, a long time ago.
  9. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    Hey, maybe you're just a healthy, growing boy. :wink:

    More and more I'm beginning to think that willpower ought to be taken off the table altogether. Clearly it has failed abysmally to turn fat people into thin people and keep them that way.

    But unless I've misunderstood, if that's indicative of how you eat every day, why aren't you now north of 265 ?
  10. ATL_Gator
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    ATL_Gator Well-Known Member

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    That's how I used to eat everyday, when at UF, as my weight continually increased. Being in the Mechanical Engineering building across from the Reitz Union was just too convenient for getting food when hungry, and I lacked the mental fortitude to say "No".

    Beyond that, I remember a time period of increased stupidity where I understood the problem, and it's source.. but still couldn't resist the temptation.
  11. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    Offhand, I'm guessing that anybody who's settled into a weight-range they can maintain it year after year, without white-knuckling it, has probably found their proper weight.

    That's why I'm guessing I've found my weight-range, which happens to be skinny. In a way, I can empathize with the unhappiness with fat as I've struggled with the unhappiness of little muscle. I've had to come to terms with my basic shape like everybody else does.

    Aside: there is reason to believe that the body can and will adjust it's setpoint UPWARDS, in response to dieting, almost as if it's saying, "I'll teach you to starve me again!"
  12. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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  13. ATL_Gator
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    ATL_Gator Well-Known Member

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    Hmm.. you know what that sounds like? Starvation mode! So you buy into that now?
  14. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    No, not in the sense that your metabolism 'grinds to a standstill' as the nutritionists like to fret. I'm guessing the reason for the confusion is because REE decreases to the point where the calorie deficit is washed out.

    That said, I suspect it is accurate to say that the body perceives dieting as starvation (in a sense, dieting is programmed starvation).

    For one thing, we know that when you lose significant amounts of weight the metabolism slows for reasons other than decreased activity and less body-mass. It appears to be a survival mechanism.

    More insidiously for the dieter, when you lose a significant amount of weight ... your body wants it back. It will increase hunger and decrease satiety to get the weight back. And it will even increase baseline weight to safeguard against future starvation.

    So, I no longer believe that dieters gain their weight back simply because they 'slide back into old habits' or 'take their eyes off the ball.' I think it has more to do with the body's biological safeguards. I cannot blame them for gaining their weight back. I can only blame them now if they keep dieting hoping for a happier result.

    My neighbor who lost 75 pounds on his quack, er, doctor-directed Opti-Fast diet ? He's already gained back 15 in a matter of weeks. Evidently, his body prefers real food. Go figure.
  15. ATL_Gator
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    ATL_Gator Well-Known Member

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    So you are telling me that I will be 265+ again at some point in my life, and moreso that my body desires to be 265?

    Sounds like the same mularky that the body mysteriously alters itself to deal with impending starvation.

    I can tell you that every time I even put on 10 lb, I can directly attest it to absolute un-abated eating, and eating more calories than I know I need to sustain my weight. And that eating is a mental choice to do so, not a physical one.
  16. LeafUF
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    LeafUF Well-Known Member

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    I dont buy your setpoint weight argument however I think there is something in this last part worth discussing. Part of it may be taking their eyes off the ball or falling back into old habits. And another thing may be that extreme dieting like so many embark on to lose their weight is actually causing their metabolism to drop significantly more than their weight loss alone would explain. This is what they have found with many of the biggest loser contestants who have gone on to gain back their weight. So, I do think how the weight is lost may give us a better idea as to why so many gain weight after successful weight loss.
  17. LeafUF
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    LeafUF Well-Known Member

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    ATL, when you dropped the majority of your weight what did you do to get there and how long did it take you? I am really wondering if the reason so many yoyo is that they choose to take an extreme approach to weight loss which inevitably leads to gaining some, all or even more weight back.
  18. Dreamliner
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    Dreamliner Well-Known Member

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    I thought you were telling me that you were obviously overeating at 265 ? I've bounced around between 140-145 for years now. I can easily envision gaining to 160. But I'd have to strain to do it. I'd have to overeat.

    Whatever the case, we know that the vast majority of dieters gain their weight back. BUT, I'm certainly not telling you that you should try to gain all your lost weight back. I'm not telling you that you should try to gain any weight back. Just see how it goes. Maybe you'll be one of the fortunate ones who can maintain lost weight without white-knuckling it.

    For me, that last bit is key. In my view, it's hardly worth the effort if it's always going to be an effort.
  19. ATL_Gator
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    ATL_Gator Well-Known Member

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    50-55 lb of it took about a year, maybe a little more.

    From what I recall, the first 10 dropped REAL fast. 40+ came off at a rate about 1 lb per week. Factor in a couple of plateaus and some holiday "set backs" (minor, relatively speaking) and that is about a years worth.

    My wife has followed the same method, dropped 50 in about 45 weeks.

    It took me maybe 30 weeks or so to go from 210 to 185 last year. I am now up to anywhere from 190 to 195. Every now and again I can tip the scale at 188, but I really eat too large of a dinner to sustain that.

    For example, tonight's dinner was 4 soft tacos and 3 hard tacos (taco kit made at home) with sour cream, cheddar cheese and refried beans on all of them. Again, that was a decision to get up and make the rest instead of keeping some for left-overs tomorrow. It wasn't that I was hungry at all... I simply wanted to continue to taste them.
  20. ATL_Gator
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    ATL_Gator Well-Known Member

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    I was over-eating at 265. It was slow, but I was consistently gaining weight.

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