obama's nonrecovery recovery

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by g8orbill, Aug 8, 2013.

  1. rivergator
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    rivergator Well-Known Member

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    It all seems pretty simple: Are things as good as we'd like? Probably not. Are they better than they were when Obama took office? Yes.

    You guys seem just desperate to complain about how awful things are and want to claim how it's all Obama's fault. We had that here on Too Hot during Bush, but it was pretty much just one poster (G&S). Now it seems like all conservatives want to line up behind a really negative and petty argument.
  2. G8trGr8t
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    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    one could argue it is not better because time defeats hope and low expectation
    one could argue it is not better because time defeats hope and low expectations and acceptance of failure and muddling mediocrity become the new normal.
  3. gatordowneast
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    gatordowneast Premium Member

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    Obama is philosophically screwed up. Bush was not a dynamic leader but his heart was in the right place. He had two events (9-11 and the housing meltdown/Lehman collapse trigger financial meltdown), neither of which were his doing. He didn't blame anyone...he dealt with each.

    If Obama would accept responsibility for screw ups, he may get some sympathy. But he refuses to. He continues to be the victim.
  4. Gatorrick22
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    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

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    Fixed... Agree totally. The Dems believe this crap below.

    That is the phrase that must be repeated. - The Dems mantra: "...below expectation and acceptance of failure become the new normal."
  5. Matthanuf06
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    Matthanuf06 New Member

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    What makes you think that since things are "better" than they were before that it had something to do with Obama? The economy goes in cycles, we could have elected literally anyone in the country, including Bush, and they'd also be able to see the economy is better than it was 5 years ago. It isn't an accomplishment.
  6. gatordowneast
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    gatordowneast Premium Member

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    Obama would take credit for the tides if he thought it would help his popularity. And the economy under him has been similar to tides. He's done nothing to change the normal rise and fall.

    Had he been serious about increasing employment, he would have cut corp tax rates and eliminated corp deductions...simplified code. He could have ramped up "traditional" energy industry with pipeline approval, drilling lease approval and not punishing and pummeling coal industry. He would not have loaded down a stimulus bill with paybacks to unions and bundlers that accomplished nothing. He would have cut un-necessary EPA regulations, not added to them. He could have nominated NLRB members that were actually pro growth/pro business and not just pro union.

    And what would have been huge...he could have not crammed Obamacare down the nation's throat with zero Pub votes at a time when the economy was in the tank. Think about that...legislation that fundamentally changes 16-18% of GDP with no Republican votes. Zero. Nada.
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  7. austingtr
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    austingtr VIP Member

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    Great summary. This doesn't have to be complicated. The reason why politicians make everything complicated is because they want to benefit those who prop them up. Thus we have a cluster f of tax code, ACA, and despite what worshippers of Obama think, we are stuck in a malaise of crappy economics, a country filled with people on welfare, and disability, and those who want to find jobs, can only get part time jobs if they are lucky.
  8. gatordowneast
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    About sums it up. Obama, (pretending to care about the downtrodden and those who have had bad breaks) has actually created more of a "haves" and "have not" economy where many are doing fine but a pretty large group don't have many options or hope but to apply for Guvmint aid. Is this intentional on his part? I could probably argue both sides. I lean toward, yes, it is intentional as he (like most libby elites) honestly believes he knows what is best. After all, isn't he the smartest guy in the room? (who won't reveal his college transcripts or test scores)
  9. rivergator
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    rivergator Well-Known Member

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    you guys certainly want to blame everything bad on Obama. but he gets no credit for anything good?
    Personally, I'm not sure how much influence the president has either way on every economic indicator and factor.
  10. dirigo
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    dirigo Premium Member

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    G8tr, Downeast & Rick, over the past few years you have each complained on almost a daily basis about the pace and policy of the recovery. I invite each of you to point out among our trading partners which nation you believe to have done a better job. I'll look forward to your responses.
  11. gatordowneast
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    We represent 25% of world GDP. We will either lead the world out of the funk it is in or we will hold the rest of the world down. PERIOD. It is like comparing an aircraft carrier to a 15 foot runabout. You can't compare. They both float...that's it.

    In Obama's twisted, screwed up mind, Government (more of it) is the answer. Government is the Problem. Reagan said it best. Who caused the market crash? Government initiated our problems by requiring banks loan to the "underserved". Banks learned they could lay the loans off, make the fees, with no risk. And it almost brought the entire economy down. Scary. Government.

    If Obama had a clue, our economy and the rest of the world would be roaring and we wouldn't have 50 M on food stamps with 30 M unemployed/underemployed or who have given up.
  12. dirigo
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    dirigo Premium Member

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    Downeast, I couldn't disagree more strongly with your opinion. I defy you to find even one recognized economist that supports your thesis. Are you telling me that the EU must wait on the US before it can begin to address its troubles? The fact is that the there are dozens of nations with sophisticated economies that since 2009 have been working on getting their respective economies out of the ditch. They have used a variety of different policies and have had a variety of different results.

    You've consistently asked that our states be used as test sites when it comes to solutions to our nation's health care crisis. Now you don't believe that the same methodology isn't relevant to the worldwide financial crisis?? You're better than that. Again. Name the nation who you believe is doing it better than the US.
  13. gatordowneast
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    gatordowneast Premium Member

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    Many nations have much higher growth rates than the US. For 2012, we are 127th of 220 nations so about in the middle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_real_GDP_growth_rate

    Most all developing nations do in fact have higher growth rates.

    But, you missed my point. The US (and China) are the largest drivers of GDP growth in the world by far. When the US catches a cold, we all know the rest of the developed world typically catches pneumonia.

    You can disagree all you want. Maybe you think 14% unemployment is just fine? Perhaps you think 50 M on food stamps (28 M when Obama was elected) is just fine? Perhaps you think it is fine that 10s of Millions of Americans drained their savings with the collapse and loss of jobs? Perhaps you think service jobs where someone must work 2-3 jobs to support their family is just fine?

    I disagree. We can do much better. We deserve to do much better. We have to do much better. The difference between "haves" and "have nots" has increased or decreased during this administration? Be honest.

    We've replaced full time jobs with part time jobs. Why? Companies are sitting on Trillions of Cash but are not investing in new ventures? Why?

    It's a 5 letter name.
  14. Gatorrick22
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    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

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    I'll do this when you show me Obama's energy policy in writing.
  15. dirigo
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    dirigo Premium Member

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    Non-sequitur much? I'll show you Obama's energy policy in writing when you show me in writing each of the 11 herbs and spices in KFC. Come on Rick, stay on topic.
  16. dirigo
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    dirigo Premium Member

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    I agree with many of the things that you wrote. I am very, very concerned with the disparity in wealth in our country. It's already being reflected in tremendous erosion of even middle class American's achieving "the American dream". In terms of upward mobility we now rank below almost every nation in Western Europe and are actually battling it out with that bellwether of upward mobility, Great Britain!

    Yes, we need to do a lot better. More importantly we can do a lot better. Where we disagree is how to get there. You and I are both businessmen. I know why we're hiring more slowly and watching our cash reserves and it isn't because of the ACA or the inability of Washington to articulate a modern tax policy (or energy, Rick). I hire, I spend, I expand when I have customers. It's very simple and I suspect its the same for you. Any steps taken by the government that promotes more customers or even the same number but with more to spend is a step that I endorse. And I endorse those steps without regard to implements them - Obama, Bush, Crist, Scott, or Joe Blow. I'm a businessman who enjoys making money and helping my customers and my employees. I don't get caught up in the histrionics of politics that consume so many on this board. On the other hand I'm right there with you when it comes to my Gators and our vile rivals!

    Your list of countries was interesting at best and laughable at worst. I'm pretty sure you knew it as you were posting it. Not only did you not tell us which of those listed (Sierra Leone, perhaps) that you believed were doing it better you gave it away when you wrote, "Most all developing nations do in fact have higher growth rates."

    My point is that outside of China and those like Australia and South Africa that have an out-sized trading/selling relationship to it, no advanced industrialized nation is doing better that the good old U.S.A. Not Germany, not France, not the UK, not . . . Yes, we should and can do better but you lose some of your credibility when you discount how far we've come both in objective and relative terms.
  17. gatordowneast
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    Dirigio, the list was not mine...it was right out of wickipedia...it must be right! As to the US vs France, UK and other European countries, when has our growth rate ever been lower than any of theirs?

    I would say that Obama's decisions, early in his administration, not only hurt the US and our growth but it also hurt our major trading partners in Europe and Asia. Again, when one country representing 25% of world wide GDP catches a cold....what happens elsewhere? It usually is not good.

    You mention that you "hire, spend and expand" when you have more customers. Do you not think government policies have something to do with the # of customers you have and how much they have to spend? If you sell to consumers, the more people employed and the more they earn, the more you sell. So labor utilization rate and unemployment rate and under employment rate would all matter, correct? Businesses who sell to consumers need more consumers spending more money. Non food businesses do not take SNAP cards to my knowledge.

    We sell to other businesses. When they are expanding, growing, thriving we do more business...we hire more, we spend more.

    Government policy does have way more to do with Macro economic issues than we realize. Example- By changing the tax rates on capital gains for 2013, many people sold appreciated stocks or assets in 2012 to take advantage of lower rates, therefore the Treasury saw way more money than anticipated in April 2013. Is that not right? Policy influenced behavior.

    Obama is viewed as anti-Business, pro-regulation, pro-union. And if someone disagrees, they must be racist, according to the MSM. Huh? We disagreed with Jimmy Carter. He's white. We disagreed with Bill Clinton's personal conduct and bold faced lies to the public. He's white. We disagree philosophically with Barak Hussein Obama on just about every topic. He's half white.
  18. dirigo
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    dirigo Premium Member

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    Downeast, I didn't question the accuracy of your list. I assume its correct. It's the countries that are listed ahead of the US that we're "interesting at best, laughable at worst". I assumed that you were pointing to one of them as a a response to my challenge to you and Rick. Based on your last post it now seems your argument is that the growth in GNP is always greater in the US when compared to our major trading partners - Germany, the UK, and France. If in fact that's your argument the facts don't bear you out. Ours is better some years and in some years one or more of theirs is better. The point I was trying to make is that none of this economies has done a better job of digging out of the Great Recession. Look, if you don't like that indicator how about unemployment. I'm not as well-versed in that one but I'll be surprised if ours isn't lower nominally and dropped at least as rapidly as any advanced industrial economy outside of China and those that enjoy an over-sized trading/selling relationship with China.

    We get it. You two hold an unimaginable level of hate for the President. But we get a little tired of hearing that 10-12 times every day. Your disgust is acknowledged so now lets move beyond that. Give us something that we can chew on - are you for more spending cuts? Lower taxes? More money to defense? Fine, but tell us why and give us examples of situations where its produced jobs in significant numbers. We both agree that jobs and the growing disparity in wealth is perhaps our greatest immediate problem.
  19. gatordowneast
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    I'd settle for implementation of Simpson Bowles as a starter. Obama commissioned the study and ignored it. Some would suggest he ran from their findings.

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