obama and his fundamentally changing the US mantra strikes again

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by g8orbill, Jun 25, 2013.

  1. mocgator
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    mocgator Well-Known Member

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    Do you think George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams would have voted for obama?? Me either.

    At least you liberals need to be morally honest with yourselves. You hate the way the USA was established. You hate most of the Constitution. You despise the Founding Fathers.

    At least admit it so we can have a reasoned debate between liberty and socialist tyranny.
  2. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    Yeah, slave holders probably would have some hesitancy voting for a black guy. ;)
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  3. GatorRade
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    GatorRade Well-Known Member

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    What is their other option, Romney?

    This is where I think your biggest misconception lies, moc. They don't hate the US, the fathers, or the rule of law. And they don't represent tyranny anymore than most on the right. (Unless the ability of gay people to say they are married is 'tyranny')

    You believe that because they disagree with you that they must be evil haters of humanity. But the world's absolute truth isn't necessarily limited to your mind. This is part of the most basic tenets of freedom. They are trying to help the world as much as you are; they just have a different definition of what is help. To you, their definition is evil, but you probably won't be surprised to find out that some of them feel the same way about you. But neither of these views gets at the truth of two opposing views of what is best.
  4. neisgator
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    neisgator Belligerent Gator

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    They would have voted for Romney. No doubt. Scratch that. They would have voted for Gary Johnson like I did.
  5. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Epically unsurprising. If Obama showed up with a crown, shab would bend the knee.
  6. GatorRade
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    GatorRade Well-Known Member

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    I think that is at least as likely as them voting for Romney. However, I think it is even more likely that they would have voted against each other. Jefferson was much more for small government than the other two, but even he exercised quite a bit of executive power during his time in office.
  7. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    To be perfectly blunt they would have found a nice quadrant of the state, declared independence again, and said whatever passed for "come at me bro" in the late 18th century.
  8. GatorRade
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    GatorRade Well-Known Member

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    I think we romanticize them too much.
  9. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Doesn't take much romance. The nominally absolute power of George III didn't and ultimately couldn't reach into their lives the way that the nominally limited power of the federal government of today can and does reach into ours. What they called Intolerable Acts would today just be additional minor inconveniences amidst the din of government machinery probing and prodding our lives.
  10. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    I don't much care what dead men would say or do today, to be honest.
  11. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    I know some dead people that were pretty wise, so I disagree. Not sure what their being dead has to do with whether or not their opinion would be worth hearing if it were available.
  12. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    Were, as in no longer. Dead people are dead, they can't tell us anything that isnt distilled through our own presentism.
  13. GatorRade
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    GatorRade Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. The world is tremendously more complex today. I know that the right likes to call Obama "king", "dictator", "the regime", etc., but their perspective seems quite skewed on this. The government has transformed quite a bit since the founding, but I doubt there is anyone that can't find both positive and negative attributes of the changes.
  14. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    This attitude sums up a lot of the fail going on in our country today.
  15. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    What specifically do you disagree with? Subjects of the crown back then were far more left up to their own devices than citizens today are. It is all well and good to say in the abstract that the monarchy had more or less absolute power, but they had neither the ability nor the inclination to *wield* even a fraction of the power actually being used today to direct the lives and choices of the people.
  16. GatorRade
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    GatorRade Well-Known Member

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    I think wgb is making an excellent point. "Their" lessons are to a large extent our lessons that we've chosen to find there. People pick and choose what the "founding fathers" had in mind. The constitution, for all its virtues, is wholly ambiguous at almost every turn. In a world, where we are skeptical of authority, why aren't we skeptical of our own ability to interpret past authority?
  17. wgbgator
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    wgbgator Sub-optimal Poster Premium Member

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    Yes, if only we attempted to divine the intent of people dead for several centuries we'd be much better at solving 21st century issues. :no:
  18. G8trGr8t
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    0 is proceeding as if the "greenhouse gas" issue is settled. If you are buying what Mann and his false hockety stick are selling, you probably favor such administrative lattitude. When you end up ont he losing end of that lattitude, your view of the discretionary use will change. People emit CO2, cows produce methane which is much more dangerous than CO2. Are we going to require all cows be trapped in buildings and giant scrubbers be installed to collect their gas? Will wastewater treatment plants across the country be required to capture methane and hydrogen sulfide from now on? CO2 isn't nearly as big of a problem as methane but it costs a lot more to fix so he will attack coal. Ask Germany what the CO2 costs has done to their manufacturing base? The science is not definitive by any stretch and implementing programs that will tax the economy billions of dollars is ignorant when we are still struggling to get by. The man is out of touch.
  19. GatorRade
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    GatorRade Well-Known Member

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    Their world was different than our world. I guess if you simply teleported them here with zero time to acclimate to the environment, maybe you'd be right. But they'd also wonder why black people and women are voting, so I'm not sure we'd really want these ancient views.

    But if they lived here, in this time, they would be different people. They would be the people we have around us now. You and me, maybe. While you see environmental regulation as some oppressive outside force wielding extreme power, I see people being empowered to protect endangered resources, in a way that was unimaginable during the founder's time. For me, this is a great thing. The ACA? Well I'm not quite as ardent for it's merits, but I understand why it is here. It's here because people wanted it to be. Not Obama. American citizens.
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  20. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Or you could just take their very detailed writings and apply them to the circumstances of today?

    Societies without pasts are societies without futures.

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