My Thoughts on the Winstongate Scandal

Discussion in 'Swamp Gas' started by UFLAW81, Nov 14, 2013.

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  1. col_kurtz
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    col_kurtz Active Member

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    One has to wonder since this incident took place after the Dec 7 incident if Dent may have felt in the back of his mind that nothing would come of it. Let's face it, you have to assume that the rest of the team or a large number of them had knowledge of the Dec 7 incident and that the investigation or lack thereof was taking place. Pure speculation but is worthy of a note. I wonder if the FSU Athletic Dept had a huge case of "Awww Sh17 not again!!! "
  2. uftaipan
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    uftaipan Well-Known Member

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    In what sense? I fail to see what more the accuser reasonably can do (or could have done) to ensure a proper investigation. The governor has indicated a willingness to do nothing without even going through the motions of asking the Attorney General to review PC's allegations. I've seen no movement by the usual women's advocates (Gloria Allred et al) to get loud. And if this Justice Department is consistent it will not intervene based on the inconvenient demographics. I think this is over. If the accuser's story is true, then I don't think she is ever going to get the justice she deserves in the legal sense of the word. If that proves to be the case, then the best I think she can hope for is that life deals Winston a really terrible hand at some point.
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2013
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  3. Melgators
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    Melgators New Member

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    Could she file a law suit against the TPD and possibly FSU? Or, is that out of the question now also?
  4. 92gator
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    92gator Well-Known Member

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    ^^^yeah. Unfortunately, that's the only avenue of redress left--that I can think of, anyway.

    IMHO, if I were her, I'd relieve her current attorney, and consult Morgan & Morgan (perhaps another firm, but that's the one that comes to mind). John Morgan is a Bull Gator, so he's not going to be repelled by the FSU angle. Secondly, his firm has the resources to wage a battle against the State and it's agencies--no offense to her current counsel, but her office is in Dade City; I doubt she has the resources to wage a long, drawn out battle against the state. Third, he has the cred., the tenacity, the experience, and the legal chops to make it happen, and to succeed; and fourth, because he's a publicity hound--pays like 10 mil./month for advertising (hearsay, yes, but if you're familiar with advertising costs, and the breadth of his advertising, it seems plausible--whatever the number is anyway, if not quite in that neighborhood, I'm sure it's astronomical)--and the high profile nature of this case, might provide a decent incentive for him to take the case.
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2013
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  5. Melgators
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    Melgators New Member

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    Let's hope her attorney advises her wisely.
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  6. benheb
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    benheb Well-Known Member

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    I really don't understand your logic. Every one of your points is based on inconsistency of details of her story but she freely admitted up front that she her memory was faulty and she couldn't remember details.

    It seems there is physical evidence of rape. It is there and documented for you to see - the physical evidence can't be explained by the Casher and Darby testimony unless you think that's the way some people roll with their consensual sex - but granted - far fetched to me but you don't find it compelling. There definitely is evidence of improper handling by the various agencies responsible for handling this.

    What the hell would compel you to believe the woman was raped? I'd be the first to admit that there probably wasn't a good legal basis for filing criminal charges against Winston - there are troubling reasons for that but it is what it is. But you believe Casher and Darby but not the woman? Why? I'd say the motive for them to lie is crystal clear. What the hell do you think the motive of the woman was? Whatever you believe that motive is, the basis for everything you say is that she was dishonest or maybe a rape didn't occur - I really don't know what you think her inconsistencies mean. I suppose it's possible that she concocted the whole thing immediately after it happened or she had some kind of agenda and planned it all or she believed she was raped but really wasn't or whatever you think is more likely than a couple of Winston's buds lied for him. I suppose it is possible that she came up with this story - "I can't remember parts of what happened" right after the consensual sex and immediately went to the police to report she was raped to .... (I have no idea what you are postulating) - I don't get what you think is compelling about that. But this story that she cooked up, this plan that was just invented intentionally or not, did not have one piece of physical evidence to disprove it - no video, text, phone record - amazing airtight story even if she was totally sober - EVEN though her story was the only one ever investigated - her phone records, her text messages. I read your posts here and I just think - so what if she left out details she had sex with her boyfriend? Damn, her master plan should have included changing her shorts. But you think it's more compelling to take Casher and Darby's testimony as truth?

    I just don't understand your reasoning... I wish I did. I don't like FSU and I'm a biased irrational Gator fan but her incomplete story that still holds up makes me believe that, at the very least, she believes she was raped. It is possible, I suppose, that she is completely insane, or she really did know Winston and had an agenda, or he disrespected her and she cooked up the story and scheduled a class with him a month later and planned to identify him then, and whatever....

    or she was actually raped and the evidence wasn't gathered and Casher and Darby lied.

    whatever you find more compelling.
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  7. NoahBeanBizzel
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    NoahBeanBizzel Well-Known Member

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    What don't you understand, man? How could I have explained my position any better than I did?

    One thing that has been conveniently glossed over in this whole thing, is that we're talking about a woman who reportedly was out talking, dancing and giving her number out to other guys behind her boyfriend's back. I wasn't impressed after hearing that. Why does that matter? Because dishonest people do stuff like that. And remember this: if a person shows that they're dishonest up front, you have to presume that they are capable of lying about other things. But I have a feeling that you're going to find some way to conveniently spin that around, so that was probably a wasted paragraph. She was just out havin' fun, right?

    Hey, you do realize that she claimed to be hit in the back of the head, right? That's supposedly what led to her blacking out. Why is there no evidence of that? If I was part of a 12-person jury, looking at her story, with what we have to go off of, I wouldn't even suggest that there is "reasonable doubt" after looking at just the evidence; I'd argue that there is nothing to suggest that RAPE is what we're dealing with, except that she went to the police pretty much immediately after it allegedly happened. That's about it. And while each of you have conveniently ducked each of the questions I'VE asked about the holes in her story, not one of you has given me any reason to believe Winston raped her. Not one of you. You haven't even attempted to explain any of the inconsistencies. So, this thread has gotten away from being about Jameis, and it's shifted to the politics surrounding how poorly it was all handled. I've already admitted that the Tallahassee police department should have been more proactive. What else is there to say?

    I think it's bizarre that somebody can hang out with a man who allegedly raped her in a bar, give her number out, get in a cab with, allegedly get raped by him, hop on the back of his scooter, and then tell authorities you can't identify you probably couldn't identify his face in a photo lineup. And if somebody can't get the facts straight about anything that happened prior to the alleged rape, how am I supposed to believe that anything that she said while supposedly blacked out is accurate regarding her encounter sexually with Winston? We know that her and Winston had sex; however, I've seen nothing that has compelled me to believe that rape occurred.

    But somebody is going to cry out, "THIS ISN'T ABOUT WINSTON ANYMORE. THIS IS A WOMAN WHO NEVER HAD HER DAY IN COURT, YOU SICKO. WINSTON SHOULD HAVE AT LEAST BEEN CHARGED, AND A JURY SHOULD DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT HE'S GUILTY. YOU MORON." But I don't feel I've seen enough evidence in her favor to suggest that Meggs really dropped the ball by choosing not to charge Winston. And if I haven't explained my position on why I feel that way, then you just don't get it. But do me a favor and address the inconsistencies I've pointed out a bunch of times before you tell me that you don't understand my logic.
  8. NoahBeanBizzel
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    NoahBeanBizzel Well-Known Member

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    But let me ask you this: other than going to authorities almost immediately after it happened, what makes it such a slam dunk that charges should have been brought against Winston?
  9. maxgator
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    maxgator Well-Known Member

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    She isn't going to sue either. She will almost certainly bring a civil suit against Winston, though.
  10. lynngator
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    lynngator Active Member

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    I read among pages of these posts that Winston told her several times not to look at him. Was that in the police report. If there was no rape, why would he not want to see his face? In my opinion there was a coverup in Tallahassee and that alone should spur the attorney general to investigate.
  11. UFLAW81
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    UFLAW81 Premium Member

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    There was, with absolute certainty, probable cause last January.
    Why wasn't the investigation completed?
    Why wasn't the chief of police informed?
    Why wasn't the case referred to the SAO for review?
    Why wasn't the rape kit immediately sent for analysis?
    Why wasn't Winstons DNA taken?
    Why didn't FSU conduct the required investigation of sexual assault of a student?
    What was being covered up?

    Winston has taken the fifth.
    A criminal suspect who has won the Heisman trophy has taken the fifth.
    Again, what is being covered up?
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2013
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  12. Melgators
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    Melgators New Member

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    ^^^^The million dollar questions that some do not want to answer.
  13. DowntownGator
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    DowntownGator Well-Known Member

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    Don't feed the troll. He clearly doesn't get it at all, based on his posts that shows a gross misunderstanding of the law and disregard of reasonable scenarios bent favorably and conveniently towards JW's defense by his own prejudice and bias. Whereas evidence taken in the light most favorable to the State would be the standard in reviewing a motion for judgment of acquittal, Mr. Noahbean would prefer his own standard of spinning the evidence in the light most favorable to JW.

    But what we have here is a guy who lives with insatiable jealously, who finally admitted that because the victim had a boyfriend and was out with other guys drinking and dancing and texting that she is a liar and won't believe anything she says. Forget the possibility that she was drugged, or that dancing and drinking with other men and having sex earlier in the day with her boyfriend is irrelevant to being raped later that night, Mr. Noahbean has seen enough and the victim deserved whatever she got, which wasn't even a rape. Cheater! Liar!

    He then imagines himself standing his ground in a 12 person jury, which isn't accurate at all for non-capital cases, stating his belief that because the case is not a "slam dunk" under his personal standards, it should never be filed upon.

    You will not get past this guy's blind jealous rage he has over the victim cheating on her boyfriend by allowing herself to be raped.

    If only we could all live in Noahbean's world of superior moral consistency where all Womenbeans know their place ...
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  14. OaktownGator
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    OaktownGator Well-Known Member

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    Again, TPD never investigated the crime.

    In spite of them completely dropping the ball (to be kind), we have the following facts:
    - immediate contact with her roommate who then called the police, and the victim's family
    - immediate rape report... One in 50 chance it is false
    - bruising consistent with sexual assault
    - classified as sexual assault by the Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner (SANE) who did the rape kit (redacted in TPD's report, as part of their efforts to influence the case), and who would have been called as a witness in he trial
    - "Prosecutors have found SANEs to be credible witnesses in court as a result of their extensive experience and expertise in conducting evidentiary exams. The Director of a Wisconsin SANE program reported that during a 3 1/2-year period, they had a 100-percent conviction rate in cases where a SANE testified at trial."
    - immediate and accurate report of a frosh starting player named Chris as an associate of the attacker
    - accurate id of Winston as the attacker when she ends up in a class with him next semester
    - DNA confirmation of Winston as the attacker
    - Casher admitted to recording the sex, then deleting it, then throwing away his phone... two unprosecuted crimes in themselves in addition to making it clear the recording probably was not of consensual sex, because if it was, JW would have been cleared by the recording.
    - SAO attorney Cappleman declared she had real problems with the Casher and Darby affidavits

    That is evidence this should go to trial. You complained about me making assumptions in this thread, but your posts are loaded with assumptions which are pretty damned ugly and give no possibility that she is a rape victim. Some of the incorrect statements you are making (stuff that is not in the report)
    - she gave JW her phone number
    - she couldn't id him in a photo line up... no such line up was done... TPD didn't do any investigation

    Poor assumptions you are making, that would/should get debunked at trial
    - exchanging numbers with Casher makes her dishonest... you don't know the context for that, and even if it was for dating, you don't know the state of her relationship with the boyfriend
    - lack of evidence that she was hit in the head means she is lying... her whole story is consistent with someone who was slipped a date rape drug (GHB), and feeling like she was hit in the head is consistent with that
    - you assume she got in the cab willingly, but she doesn't even remember getting in the cab. Again consistent with effects of GHB, and again we can't really know what happened because TPD didn't investigate
    - you assume that Casher and Darby are telling the truth in their affidavits... which don't even match on some points, and use language these guys would never use... They were clearly "coached" into these self serving affidavits - 11 months after the crime because TPD never investigated.
    - you give value to these affidavits and don't even think this case should go to trial, when if it did go to trial, a good lawyer would tear these guys to shreds... then you're whole view of the "evidence" would be impacted
    - you assume that her hopping on the scooter is in some way an indictment of her... WTF was she supposed to do? She'd just been raped by somebody she doesn't know in some place she doesn't know, and she just wants to get home and get safe.

    Because TPD never even feigned any interest in investigating this crime, they very clearly should be under investigation. The handling of this case is an egregious breach of the public trust, and an affront to anyone who cares about the women in their lives.
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2013
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  15. denny_crane
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    denny_crane Member

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    One reason I think it wasn't investigated was there should ve been 3 arrests. One for rape, 2 for accessory to rape.
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  16. OaktownGator
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    OaktownGator Well-Known Member

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    I think it wasn't investigated because she named a starting football player as being involved from day one... And it was likely the other two guys were going to be players as well. And as you say, that would have resulted in three arrests. I'm sure Jansen made that clear to Casher and Darby (especially Darby as he may have tried to stop the rape) if they had any hesitation in concocting their story in the affidavits.
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  17. UFLAW81
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    Look, I understand FSU fans being defensive.
    For them, once again, they are Charlie Brown and reality is Lucy.
    But why should Joe Paterno go from being the winningest coach in history to some where out of the top five while others get away with similar crimes?
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  18. MetaGator
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    It is shocking that anyone could justify no charge for rape when the victim immediately reported the rape and underwent a rape kit, bruises were observed on the victim while at the hospital, a Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner judged that a sexual assault occurred, a man's DNA was found on the victim and the man admits to having sex with the victim. Especially in a college town, when the CDC reports that 19% of college age women are victims of at least attempted sexual assault ( http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/SV-DataSheet-a.pdf )

    There must be many reported rapes in a college town like Tallahassee. I wonder what percentage of reported rapes did not have even an arrest where there was a rape kit completed, bruises were found on the victim, a SANE Nurse judged raped occurred and the accused DNA was found on the victim.
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  19. benheb
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    benheb Well-Known Member

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    I believe the "inconsistencies" you mention are really just lack of details. Oaktowngator does a good job of pointing out the mix of fact and innuendo (your lineup point for example). My point was, you have to have some reasonable idea of what happened. You impugned the girls character. I don't agree with your argument there but still, what are you saying?

    You must be saying she made it up. Why would she do that? And when you come with that, you have to deal with the fact that her story, if fabricated, would not be the story that a liar makes up. Everything she said fits the physical timeline and the physical evidence. It seems like she could of made up a much more convincing one that would fit the evidence.

    This standard of reasonable doubt is lower than that required by criminal law. But that's not what we're talking about here. As for trying to reference what is baseline behavior after being raped, I have personal knowledge of what a person did after that situation and it is not intuitively obvious. What a person does after a traumatic event is often counterintuitive and I'm guessing that you, like me, have been fortunate enough to not know about that firsthand.

    So I don't get it. But it seems you and I agree that the way this was handled was wrong. Let's agree then that justice needs to be done here for the sake of whomever was wronged. I hope people demand that because Winston, like the accuser, is going to have to live with this stain for the rest of his life, even if everything else ends here.
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  20. OaktownGator
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    OaktownGator Well-Known Member

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    Agree with your post overall, and certainly I'd hope everyone can agree with your closing.
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