McCain and Graham both think ISIS is coming to America

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by g8orbill, Aug 10, 2014.

  1. nolagator
    Offline

    nolagator Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    669
    Likes Received:
    63
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Ratings Received:
    +400
    This from the people who want to raise the minimum wage. How many of those jobs are part time or minimum wage?
  2. nolagator
    Offline

    nolagator Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Messages:
    669
    Likes Received:
    63
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Ratings Received:
    +400
    Do you not consider (factor in the loss of) 6,000,000 jews that your attitude of allowed to be lost. If we took this stance, Nazi Germany may have gotten the Bomb and you might be writing in German.

    Oh, you can't indiscriminately bomb civilians - BUT we did - And it was a Lib.

    And again, it was not me who said NUKE the Radicals. I said that it took a nuke to stop the Japanese. Get you facts straight.
  3. 108
    Offline

    108 Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    18,496
    Likes Received:
    487
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    NYC
    Ratings Received:
    +1,855
    seriously, you don't really believe that right?
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. GatorBen
    Offline

    GatorBen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    7,187
    Likes Received:
    626
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings Received:
    +2,471
    And do you not realize that widespread fear amongst citizens of what the Jews were supposedly doing is what led to a populace acquiescing to their government's attempt to solve the "Jewish problem" by engaging in that attempt to get rid of a people in the first place?

    I'm arguing against the suggestion that perhaps we should exterminate a nation because there's supposedly no fixing it.

    I hope you realize the rich irony in the "attitudes like yours are how the Holocaust happened" response, because I'm willing to bet that people saying "be careful with those kinds of sentiments, that's how people sell the idea of ethnic cleansing" was not one of the things that led to the Holocaust.
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. persegator
    Offline

    persegator Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2014
    Messages:
    317
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Ratings Received:
    +195
    That's exactly the point. ISIS is full of radicals that would conduct genocide if they had half the chance. Doing it ourselves because we are scared of that possibility is in no universe justified.

    Look at how we dealt with the Nazis. We didn't go in and exterminate the Germans to the last man, woman, and child to remove the threat for good. We defeated them militarily, found the people responsible, and put them on trial for their crimes. Then we helped rebuild the country and provided a way to become peaceful members of global society. The same deal was offered to Japan. And it worked. No genocide necessary. Today they look back in shame for how they acted and what they allowed to happen.

    The fact that some of you need to be taught that extinguishing whole regions people is wrong is incredibly disappointing.
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. gatorman_07732
    Offline

    gatorman_07732 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2007
    Messages:
    32,588
    Likes Received:
    2,508
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The Irish Riviera
    Ratings Received:
    +5,218
    We fight wars out of necessity, absolutely
  7. gatorplank
    Offline

    gatorplank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,326
    Likes Received:
    141
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +501
    Haven't we already attempted what we did in Germany and Japan?
  8. persegator
    Offline

    persegator Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2014
    Messages:
    317
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Ratings Received:
    +195
    One strategy to pacify Iraq didn't work, so lets just throw up our hands and exterminate them all? The fact that you can advocate for such a horrendous idea is disgraceful. And you actually have the gall to use a Spock avatar with that kind of thinking.
    • Winner Winner x 1
  9. 108
    Offline

    108 Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    18,496
    Likes Received:
    487
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    NYC
    Ratings Received:
    +1,855
    what do you consider a "necessity"?
  10. GatorBen
    Offline

    GatorBen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    7,187
    Likes Received:
    626
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings Received:
    +2,471
    Let's just take the countries you are looking at then.

    The combined total population of Iran, Iraq, and Syria is around 130 million.

    What in the hell do you think they could possibly do that, when weighed against the idea of killing 130 million people - nearly all of whom have nothing really to do with the bad things going on - leads you to conclude that it's a good trade?
  11. gatorplank
    Offline

    gatorplank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,326
    Likes Received:
    141
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +501
    I definitely think it is a last resort strategy, and I think that we've just about tried every other strategy. If there was another option that I believe could lead to peace I'd gladly take it because it would involve a lot of casualties. So far, though, all I've heard from both sides are non-solutions. Show me a viable alternative that is actually a solution and I'd be on board with it.
  12. MichiGator2002
    Online

    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    16,945
    Likes Received:
    826
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings Received:
    +3,665
    When "ISIS comes to America" it will just be what we already had in Boston -- American-educated, residing, radicalized people grouping up and taking out a franchise in the Caliphate. It doesn't need to pour over the gaping wound that is our border with Mexico, although some certainly may, or their commercial means like money or drugs (for trade of weapons, most likely).
  13. gatorman_07732
    Offline

    gatorman_07732 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2007
    Messages:
    32,588
    Likes Received:
    2,508
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The Irish Riviera
    Ratings Received:
    +5,218
    A situation that poses a threat to our national security and way of life, however I would classify war for humanitarian reason a necessity.
  14. GatorBen
    Offline

    GatorBen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    7,187
    Likes Received:
    626
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings Received:
    +2,471
    How badly do you really think the lack of "peace" is hurting us?

    Because it would have to be hurting us pretty damn awful (as in major American cities being completely wiped off the map and every single person in them killed) to realistically put killing 100+ million people on the table as a solution.
  15. exiledgator
    Offline

    exiledgator Gruntled Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2010
    Messages:
    10,238
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Maine
    Ratings Received:
    +3,906
    My God, man. There are a myriad of approaches that don't involve your exterminating-100-million-mostly-innocent-people solution.

    The most amazing part of this laughable stance that you continue to cling to, is that it's not even a real solution. I mean, forget about the fact that we will never have the political will or capital for such a thing; You actually feel that the world will just all get along after this.

    You need more green blood, dude.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. ursidman
    Online

    ursidman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2007
    Messages:
    2,984
    Likes Received:
    617
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings Received:
    +1,269
    Finally, a world series with meaning.
  17. gatorplank
    Offline

    gatorplank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,326
    Likes Received:
    141
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +501
    You guys make some good points. Having thought about it a little more I think that I need to give my position greater clarity. I think there are many factors that come into play here. In my opinion there are 3 solutions to the problem. The first solution is transformation meaning we invade and occupy these countries temporarily in order to attempt to transform the culture and the values of the society. The second solution is permanent colonization. We turn these societies into police states where we have a permanent military presence. The third solution is judgment/elimination.

    I have obviously lost hope when it comes to transforming countries where these extremist Islamist theocracies exist. I think the debate really boils down to whether or not the governments are representative of the people. So is Iran a government that is doing the will of its people when the Iranian government funds all of these terrorist proxies and organizations? That is the first question we must answer. I think you have to look at it on a nation by nation basis.

    If the Iranian government truly does represent the majority, then I don't back off of my position. If the source of this evil traces back to the civilization itself, then you must address the problem at its root. If a nation murders and commits violent acts because that is what the people demand, then you are talking about a nation of murderers and violent people who live and breath murder and violence because it is deeply embedded into the culture and the civilization itself.

    I keep going back to Carthage because I think there are many similarities between Carthage and what we are seeing in our modern times with radical Islam. Carthage was a place where ritual infanticide was practiced, and unspeakable violence was justified in the name of religion. Human sacrifice was celebrated, and the entire culture was permeated by a savage bloodlusting theocracy. The religion of Carthage found its roots in the fertility cults of ancient Babylon. This was the religion of the deities that were known as Baal and Ashtaroth. The people who practiced the savage brutality demanded by these deities were the nations and people that the Israelites were commanded to conquer and exterminate. These were people like the Canaanites and the Ammonites.

    My understanding of these ancient civilizations is that these ancient savage bloodlusting theocracies were not tyrannical in the sense that they ruled against the will of the people. The government the people had is the government that the people wanted. The government was not one isolated minority opposing its will on the people. And my understanding of Iran today is that the people of Iran believe America is "the great Satan" and Israel is "the little Satan." They burn American flags every day in the streets and chant "death to America." My understanding is that over half of the population of Iran would push the button to send a nuke to America or Israel because we are infidels who do not submit to the religion of Islam.

    I look at ancient Israel. I look at Rome. I look at modern day America. I look at modern day Europe. I acknowledge that all of these societies have had their own set of issues. I think that we need to listen to the lessons of history and recognize that even if we have our own issues violent theocracies that glorify and celebrate bloodshed are a cancer that will spread and must be dealt with.

    When you remove cancer you remove it not for the effects that cancer has in the present, but you remove cancer in order to prevent the havoc that it will create in the future. ISIS and Iran might not be doing enough in the present to offset millions of lives lost, but in a world with nuclear weapons and modern day science and technology we might look back on history and wish we removed the cancer when we had the upper hand economically, technologically, and militarily.

    So I guess to sum up my position, I would say that you only exercise the 3rd option when the entire culture and civilization glorifies and celebrates the shedding of blood for religious reasons that are embedded into the culture and the civilization itself.

    If you have a small little minority that has usurped power from the majority, then I don't think that is a scenario where the 3rd option is morally acceptable. When that is the case, then I think you just topple the old government and have a new one established that is more civilized and representative of the people.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2014
  18. gatorplank
    Offline

    gatorplank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,326
    Likes Received:
    141
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +501
    Are the people of who live under the rule of ISIS and Iran innocent? Are these governments small little minorities oppressing the majority or do they truly represent the people? I think that pretty much sums up the debate.

    If there are truly 100 million innocent people, and by innocent I mean 100 million people who think that terrorism and killing infidels is morally deplorable, then I wouldn't advocate for any plan or solution that involves killing 100 million innocent people.

    I don't doubt that moderate Muslims live in America and live in the western world. I just doubt that they are the majority in these Middle Eastern countries.
  19. gatorplank
    Offline

    gatorplank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,326
    Likes Received:
    141
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings Received:
    +501
    You simply cannot pacify people who live and breathe a way of life that celebrates and glorifies killing in order to serve a deity. The glorification of violence for Allah is deeply embedded into the culture and the civilization.

    Comparing Germany and Japan and the set of issues those conflicts brought to the table to the problems in the Middle East is comparing apples and oranges.
  20. exiledgator
    Offline

    exiledgator Gruntled Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2010
    Messages:
    10,238
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Maine
    Ratings Received:
    +3,906
    The answer to the first bolded question is: yes. A little bit of research will show you that Iranian citizens, by a wide majority, hold a favorable opinion of the USA, but an unfavorable opinion of our foreign policy.

    That was easy. Are we done here? ;)

    What if it was 51/49? Kill 'em all? Anyway you slice it, you're advocating genocide.

    There are certainly more than the 3 options you listed in your previous post. Personally, I live with the hope (I know, dirty word) that information will bring the region around. From an historical perspective, the 'Arab Spring' has just dawned. It's quite reasonable to think that in 20, 30, 40 years the area could be much different and much more peaceful than it currently is.

    Let's continue to contain and control and allow our ideals to win the day. If we truly believe in Western society and all it affords the indivicual, and we live in a world where the flow of ideas are ubiquitous and free, than we should not need to commit genocide or occupy, or enslave, to have our values win the day. This is not the 3rd Century BC.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2014
    • Winner Winner x 1

Share This Page