Malaysia Flight 370

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by exiledgator, Mar 10, 2014.

  1. Lawdog88
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    Lawdog88 Well-Known Member

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    Statistically, it has been proven that when airplanes stop flying for any reason, and they are over an ocean, they fall in.
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  2. DaveFla
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    DaveFla VIP Member

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    My apologies. I will answer your question later when I have time. The Air France crash was very involved and included some very complex systems issues that only the Airbus is prone to have.
  3. bayou_gator
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    bayou_gator Active Member

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    Fair enough.
  4. g8trjax
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    g8trjax Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]


    Is it too soon?
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  5. QGator2414
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    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    Looks like an A380...
  6. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Yes. But also heh.
  7. DaveFla
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    DaveFla VIP Member

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    IMO...

    The Air France Airbus 330 accident and the Asiana 777 accident, although for completely different reasons and equipment, are indicative of a far larger problem that has surfaced in air transportation.

    Not long ago, the United States was in charge of aviation, worldwide. All air traffic control facilities and all pilots are required to speak English. Within the past 20 years, the leader in aviation regulations have switched from the US to ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization). ICAO's focus on safety, unlike the US's seems to be with the pilots, and not the equipment. Most international airlines hire very low time and I'll-experienced pilots. The foreign airlines run their own training programs known as ab initio training. They hire very young pilots with ZERO experience, and train them in their procedures from, literally, their first flight in an airplane. What they have produced are crews of robots, capable of pushing buttons and getting similar results so long as the events meet a very strictly defined event. When that event exceeds the boundries that are practiced, their training fails, miserably. Today, pilots spend more time in classrooms learning Crew Resource Management (CRM), aviation theory and aviation law than they do in the airplane and/or the sim, learning how to fly.

    In the Air France accident, the failure of both autopilot systems, caused by a faulty pit it probe, put the pilots into a position where they never have been before. The airplane was in a full stall, and the pilots did everything that their training taught them to do. The problem is, it was the wrong thing to do given the failure of the pitot/static instruments. They flew an otherwise perfectly good airplane right into the ocean.

    Same with the Asiana 777. Given that the weather was nearly perfect, and they were flying a visual approach, they were in a position that they seldom found themselves in training.

    We have a force of GREAT button pushers in the cockpit of the foreign airlines. The problem is, they suck at critical thinking. If there's a button to push, they push it. But in the absence of a button to correct what critical event they find themselves facing, they have no idea how to react.

    I have flown both state of the art aircraft (Boeing 737-700/800) and I have flown the old "steam gauge" airplanes (Boeing 727 and Douglas DC 9 and 10). When the S--- hits the fan, my first reaction is to turn off the gee whiz crap, and revert to my skills as an airman. Aviate, navigate and communicate. That's not what is being taught in today's training facilities. The most common phrase being uttered in today's cockpit is, "what's that thing doing now?" Referring to the airplanes Flight Management System (FMS) and/or auto flight systems. In MY cockpit, that "thing" is doing exactly what I tell it to do, or it's gonna be disabled (HAL? Anyone?).

    We don't have an equipment or design problem. We have a human factors problem. There is a dangerous lack of experience in today's cockpits, particularly in the cockpit of international airlines. Critical thinking is nearly non-existed.

    That, and well, Airbus sucks, generally.
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  8. OklahomaGator
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    OklahomaGator Jedi Moderator VIP Member

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    Thanks Dave for the info. Would you say that applies to all international carriers? My experience flying on international carries (non-US companies) is that the service and amenities to the passenger are better than US carriers. But with your comments it sounds like the quality and training of the cockpit crews leave much to be desired.
  9. QGator2414
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    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    A neighbor of ours (one cul de sac over) is a pilot and we were discussing the Asiana crash a couple of months ago and he echoed these exact sentiments!

    Pilots no longer are capable of really aviating to the level they need to be but are great at telling the plane they are sitting in the cockpit...

    It is comforting to know how far technology has come. But this consequence is concerning...
  10. bayou_gator
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    bayou_gator Active Member

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    Thank you for your honest opinion Dave.
    Our society, both corporate and individual, in large part, has decided to take the easiest path which is rarely, if ever, the best path at the end of the day and it has trickled down to our life or death professions.
    Cliches abound, I will try to refrain.
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  11. exiledgator
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    exiledgator Gruntled Premium Member

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    Day 28. Two days left of pinging at best (pinger was never overhauled for it's scheduled 2012 servicing).

    I definitely didn't imagine us still now knowing at this juncture.

    So now comes the really hard question....
  12. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    Think about this the next time you see a car commercial advertising yet another new feature that makes the car drive itself. I feel more danger on the road every time I hear about cars that will control lane position and parallel park for you and such... more, not less. Because over time, fewer and fewer people will have any freakin' clue how to drive.
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  13. g8orbill
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    g8orbill Gators VIP Member

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  14. exiledgator
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    exiledgator Gruntled Premium Member

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    I understand the sentiment, but automation has made air travel safer than ever. Humans err often. In a perfect world every pilot and driver are trained, instinctive , attentative, and able to take over from an automated system gone wrong at a moments notice.

    We're unlikely to have a perfect world, but we shouldn't, can't, and won't turn back from automated flight (and the coming of automated driving). It will save lives but cannot stop tragedies such as this.
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  15. QGator2414
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    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    I dont think it is the idea that automation is unsafe. It is the fact pilots are not as well trained anymore as a consequence of it for the situations they need to be.

    While pilot error is going to be the almost certain cause of the Asian flight in San Fran...Did automation play a roll in their inability to realize they needed to do a fly around? I think it probably did play a roll.

    I want Capt Sully's flying the plane and not Capt John "microsoft flight simulator champion"...

    I think a lot of pilot error crashes are the result of them not being properly trained which for me makes it hard to blame a pilot if they were not trained adequately even though pilot error is the cause.
  16. tegator80
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    tegator80 Well-Known Member

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  17. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    There is no way that there is a looming inflection point at which safety gains from increased automation collapse under the deficit of human knowledge and skill that automation is there to support and not replace.
  18. exiledgator
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    exiledgator Gruntled Premium Member

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    Again, in a perfect world, there'd be a Sully in every left seat able to monitor and ready to take over should automation fail.

    Put a Sully in the left seat of every plane and remove automation and you'd see an increase in incidents as opposed to a fleet of Malaysian pilots on auto.

    This incident is tragic and we have the right to lament the effects of automation on the skills of the pilots of the world. Let's just be careful not to accuse this amazing technology as only causing harm.
  19. exiledgator
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    exiledgator Gruntled Premium Member

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    Now when exactly do we call this search off ?
  20. MichiGator2002
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    MichiGator2002 VIP Member

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    I doubt it will ever be categorically called off. If the Chinese lead is legit the best we can hope is that with a confined search area, Wood's Hole or someone will be able to find the box in relatively few years. It is gonna turn off, what, later today or tomorrow? If that spot is in abyssal plain, something like 12,000 feet, it will be a long search even in a 10 square mile area, if they are that lucky to have one.

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