Lindsey Graham: GOP faces ‘demographic death spiral’ without immigration reform

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by HudsonGator, Jun 17, 2013.

  1. Gatorrick22
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    Gatorrick22 Well-Known Member

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    Then change the laws! Simple isn't it. The dumb argument is those of you that think we're not a sovereign nation that's allowed to expel trespassers. That's dumb.
  2. HudsonGator
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    HudsonGator New Member

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    One good thing about giving illegals a path to citizenship is that it will finally put Texas in play for the Democrats. Once we get Texas, the Republicans can forget about ever winning the presidency again.
  3. mocgator
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    mocgator Well-Known Member

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    This is all about crony capitalism and nothing about illegal aliens. Can we at least discuss the real issue?
  4. AzCatFan
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    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

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    We can sit here and discuss the fiscal ramifications of enforcing our immigration laws, or we can look at case studies to see what actually happened. Take Alabama, for example, that passed a strict immigration law. Here are some highlights from a U. of Alabama study:

    Sure Americans could potentially take the job, but even in Alabama, with high unemployment and a mass exodus of immigrants, that didn't happen.

    You are entitled to your own opinions, but the above represent the facts. And those facts are we are dependent on cheap, foreign labor. If we remove said labor, the negative fiscal effects far outweigh any positives. The result is a significant loss in GNP, plus higher inflation. And our citizens? They are not replacing the jobs left by immigrants. Bitch and moan about citizens being soft all you want, but that's not going to change the fact that there are businesses reliant on immigrant labor.

    As for the current legal paths, the numbers just don't add up. We allow in 55,000 H2 (low skill) workers a year. Currently, there are 11 million illegals in the US. Even if half are working a job not going to be replaced by a citizen, and we magically deported all 11 million, it would take nearly 100 years to fill the number of immigrants needed. In short, the law doesn't let supply meet demand as current.

    So we can change the law, and have been trying to change the law for years now. Remember McCain-Kennedy six years ago? Or how about the Gang of 8 suggestion. Problem is, every time a change to the law is proposed, the voices against the change and for more enforcement are loud enough to stop any progress. And the end result is status quo, because both sides of the aisle now realize just how fiscally detrimental increased enforcement is. They've seen the results in places like Alabama and Georgia and understand we can't go down that path. Unfortunately, there still seems be enough resistance and people who don't understand this that the law remains unchanged.
  5. GatorAvatar
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    GatorAvatar New Member

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    Rhino wink wink
  6. DeanMeadGator
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    DeanMeadGator '63 Gator VIP Member

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    I agree. Let me pose this question: Why would anyone spend the time and money to enter the U.S. legally and in accordance with the requirements of existing law?

    I fail to understand why this is a liberal vs. conservative issue? Is it not an issue for all Americans? What happens when young people find out that they are the ones who are paying all of the costs?
  7. 92gator
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    92gator Well-Known Member

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    Excellent points, AZ.

    Problem: legalize them, and they become subject to minimum wage. That means they will no longer be "cheap foriegn labor", and you'll get inflation anyway.

    That's why the status quo has always prevailed.

    Let them come in...let them work...off the books....turn a blind eye.

    The 'problem' is not fixed by kicking them out...nor by legalizing them.

    It's pretty much win-win now. They get to leave their 3rd world countries, where they would be much worse off than here, even undocumented (else they wouldn't keep coming); they send billions back to their homelands--and we enjoy the fruits of cheap foriegn labor.

    wink wink.

    Not saying it's right--just saying there's a reason for why it has maintained as it has, as long as it has.

    IMO, it's more than mere coincidence that when the govm't started cracking down on illegal immigration....the economy went south.

    Illigal immigrants are fan'flipp'n-tastic, for a thing known as 'velocity of money'. They buy a lot of sh*t. They spend a lot of money, here (besides what they send to their families back home). They buy crappy property; they sell crappy property. They pay rent for crappy property. They help keep stuff cheap. Money flows. People are happy, all around.

    We lose that, by opening up the borders--or closing them off.

    Sometimes it's just better to leave well enough alone.
  8. icequeen
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    icequeen Well-Known Member

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    AzCatFan - your Alabama quote with the income information: "Assuming that the law causes 40,000-80,000 unauthorized immigrant workers who earn $15,000-35,000 a year to leave the state, the resulting decline in aggregate demand would have annual economic and fiscal impacts of reductions of about (i) 70,000-
    140,000 jobs with $1.2-5.8 billion in earnings, (ii) $2.3-10.8 billion in Alabama GDP or 1.3-6.2 percent of the state’s $172.6 billion GDP in 2010, (iii) $56.7-264.5 million in state income and sales tax collections, and (iv) $20.0-93.1 million in local sales tax collections. The law is well intentioned but just one cost component, the impact of the reduction in aggregate demand that the law causes, shows that the law will be costly to the state even without considering other costs. "

    Okay here's my problem with that. Those are livable wages. I'm betting those "migrant" workers who are making that money are not actually the illegal ones. Part of the issue with these laws is the fear mongering that's been going on with the legal immigrants worried their kids are going to be tossed out of school or that if they're here legally but their families aren't that they will get deported. So what is the US supposed to do? "Yes you're here legally, but what the hell, let's allow your wife, 6 children, your parents, your in-laws, grandma and grandpa, great-grandma, and all your cousins, second cousins and their former roommates stay because, even though caring for all of them costs the state and federal government a ton of money, we really really need you to go pick that lettuce out there." So they get scared and leave.

    No one is saying to never allow immigrants in. But you can't continue to have this unchecked tidal wave of illegal immigrations and pretty much an ineffectual border on both sides of the country. As for the "path" there needs to be something associated with that - something they give back as penalty/payment for being here illegally and not just another free ride that those here legally didn't get.

    As for felons not working out....excuse me, they're inmates. Who lets them walk off the job early? Sounds like people are more worried about some bleeding heart saying, oh those poor murderers can't work that hard, rather than getting any work out of them. Put chains on their ankles like a chain gang is supposed to have, and put them to work to earn back what the taxpayers have to pay for their maintenance. Have a guy on horseback with a nice semi and the first one that tries to escape, shoot them.

    As for businesses that claim they're going to close or have to move - so we're going to reward businesses that became that dependent on illegal immigrants? Of course it'll be different. They won't be able to say to someone "hey, you need to come in and work sunup to sundown 7 days a week for almost no money, no insurance, no worker's comp. You lose a limb it's on you, go apply for Medicaid. You don't agree, I'll call the INS". Because that option is so much better, right?

    As for construction, have a few patients in the practice I work for who are out of work and are going back injured against doctor's orders because their bosses have threatened to use more illegals instead. Since they're under the table, there's no worker's comp, no liability, etc, on these workers. Because that's a much better scenario for American workers, right? One of them ended up losing 4 toes because he couldn't take time off to handle the injury properly.

    That'd be reminiscent of another time in history where it was too expensive to pay folks livable wages for hard work and they had their lives threatened. Guess what? America is still here, agriculture is still here, and we still have manufacturing.

    Would this make goods more expensive? Quite likely. But guess what also is making things expensive? Increased taxes needed to pay the increasing Social Security, WIC, SNAP, Medicare, Medicaid and school systems that are needed to pay all these people benefits because they can't make livable wages.

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