Liberals who support obama and the debt limit please explain...

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by mocgator, Sep 27, 2013.

  1. mocgator
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    mocgator Well-Known Member

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  2. gatordowneast
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    gatordowneast Well-Known Member

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    5, 4, 3, 2, 1....but Bush.
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  3. mocgator
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    mocgator Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
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  4. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    I can't speak for Obama, but I'm happy to explain why I think the debt ceiling fight is ridiculous.

    It doesn't actually address anything about expanding debt or what drives it. It concerns the ability to pay for things we have already spent money on, not new spending at all.

    Since the Tea Party loves their credit card and family budget analogies, I'll give you one:

    If you have excessive credit card debt and realize that you need to start getting out of debt do you 1) budget better in the future so that you can start paying down the debt and stop incurring as much new debt or 2) stop paying your credit card bill? Because by not raising the debt ceiling, you would be picking #2 without having a bit of effect on #1.

    The debt ceiling is a meaningless metric; I don't think we should raise it, we should get rid of it altogether. If we don't want to get into more debt, pass budgets and appropriations bills that don't. Don't pass funding bills that necessarily require that debt be incurred and then start screaming "no, don't you dare pay for the stuff that we told you to buy!" when it comes time to pay the bills.
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  5. gatordowneast
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    gatordowneast Well-Known Member

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    GOP's only leverage in ratcheting down spending and slowing the rate of the increase in debt, is their stand on raising the debt limit. And if Obama wants the debt limit raised, he will need to give concessions on "discretionary spending". Period. he gives concessions, the debt limit is raised. He is inflexible, government shut down is on him. Period.
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  6. mocgator
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    mocgator Well-Known Member

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    Hello my obama boys. Where you at?
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  7. VAg8r1
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    VAg8r1 Well-Known Member

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    What Obama did was intellectually dishonest political theater. The big difference between what he did back in 2007 and what the mad hatters of the Tea Party did in 2011 and are now doing is at the time Barack Obama was speechifying there was absolutely no chance that the debt limit would not be increased. Today the Tea Party types are playing chicken with the full faith and credit of the United States. There is actually a chance that the US government could default on its debt for the first time in history.

    For those who like to quote a certain former president, Reagan's take on extending the debt limit.

    link
  8. T3goalie
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    T3goalie VIP Member

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    The Debt ceiling is akin budgets. Niether exists! We are the bananna republic of continuing resolutions...
  9. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    Well at least budgets serve a purpose...

    Can't say the same about the statutory debt limit. "We're going to direct you to spend borrowed money, then forbid you from borrowing the money to do so." isn't exactly a logical statement. Time to do what everyone else does and either get rid of the debt ceiling altogether or tie it to spending bills so that it is automatically increased whenever a spending bill requiring borrowing is enacted. Either one would get rid of the absurdity of Congress requiring spending and then risking default when that required spending is actually undertaken unless separate legislative action is taken.
  10. umcpgator
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    umcpgator Well-Known Member

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    Obama is in a position like a certain former football coach we all know that will say certain things based on which job title he is holding currently. There are valid arguments on both sides, but your view of it may change based on ideology.
  11. fredsanford
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    fredsanford VIP Member

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    It's also easy to rail against an event that you know has no chance of being stopped to score political points.
  12. g8rjd
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    There are valid arguments on all sides what we should be spending on and what we shouldn't, how our budget should operate, how we can work to get back to a surplus and pay down the debt and ensure ongoing financial growth in our economy and stability in times of economic distress in a more global economy. Screwing with the full faith and credit of the United States Government based on an artificial limitation that is unlinked to Congressional spending for politics? Validity of that one is a bit more questionable.
  13. gatordowneast
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    gatordowneast Well-Known Member

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    The House is in charge of appropriating money. Clinton had the Gingrich led house to thank for "paper surplus" (there was no actual surplus). And Doofus and the American people will have the House to thank for "real discretionary" spending cuts and delaying Doofuscare implementation re the Individual Mandate for a year. The exchanges can remain open and people will still be able to sign up but no subsidies without verification of income and no one holds a gun to people's head, making them sign up.
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  14. dangolegators
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    dangolegators Well-Known Member

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    It was dumb of Obama to vote against the debt ceiling increase. You don't charge the credit card and then refuse to pay. If you don't want debt, then make more income and spend less.
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  15. g8rjd
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    g8rjd Well-Known Member

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    With this correction:

    :yes:

    Tangentially, I've always wondered if the debt limit can be surpassed by the Executive. On one hand, Congress has said, "Spend money on this." On the other hand it has said, "Don't take on more debt than this, even though we said to do it." When there are two conflicting laws, the specific controls over the general, so the specific appropriation could arguably control over the general debt limit, allowing the Executive to blow through the limit.

    Don't know if it can or ever will happen that way, but always one of those things I wondered about...
  16. GatorBen
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    GatorBen Well-Known Member

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    I'm a fan of the argument that the statutory debt limit is unconstitutional as applied if it would cause a default. Essentially that the public debt clause in the 14th Amendment explicitly, and the public borrowing clause in Article I implicitly, bar the Congress from defaulting on debt that it has previously authorized, so that to the degree the application of the statutory debt limit would result in a default it is of questionable constitutionality as applied and the executive is entitled to decline to follow it in the absence of a final court ruling that it is constitutional.

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