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Discussion in 'Nuttin' but Net' started by HallGator, Jan 28, 2014.
We will agree to disagree.
I actually thought Wiltjer became a more versatile player in his final season at UK . . . something I never expected, as I always saw him as strictly a role player/3-point specialist.
Lamb and Jones were only there two season, and both were pretty solid.
And while we have had a few players make huge sophomore leaps--- such as Noah or Bonner. . . . there are others like Casey, D. Lee, P. Young, etc - - - who began playing their best basketball well after their second season.
So, yes - - - I agree Cal may not always turn out polished, nba-ready players --- I think that has more to do with the short time span he has with them than anything coaching related.
I think that small window makes it very hard to evaluate his "development" abilties. But I will say this, UK typically is a much better squad in March than in November. That is a sign of "team development".
Ok. . . don't make me defend Cal anymore.
I feel dirty!
This isn't the NBA, so its not fair to just plug another coach in. You can't discount his recruiting. How many of those coaches do you think could get all the recruits he has gotten...
I'll just have to disagree about the development thing. I do think he gets more credit for developing players than he deserves. I'll say that - really only because some talk as if he's got a magic wand.
I think he's developed freshmen. Some more than others. But watch Teague in the tournament compared to November and December. There were actually national articles (at least 2 that I recall) suggesting that UK could not win a title with Teague at the point. Davis developed more of an outside game as his year progressed. Freshmen aside though, Cal's done a great job IMO with multiyear players. Lamb's mindset and energy level changed. Terrance Jones came into his own starting in January of his sophomore year. This is about the same thing things started clicking with Poythress - who has improved significantly this year compared to last.
What about Liggins and Darius Miller? What about freaking Josh Harrelson? Here's a very recent article where Patrick Patterson gives Cal credit for developing him and improving his perimeter game: http://probballreport.com/raptors-patrick-patterson-credits-kentuckys-john-calipari/ If you disagree with the examples I've given, then we just disagree.
Keep in mind, its not just Cal (or any coach). Cal has a great staff. People I talk to who are close to the program and/or staff tell me how big a part the staff plays in development especially when it comes to individual skills. How players develop at a school is due to more than just the head coach. I don't know if Cal is deficient in areas of skill development or not, but I'd bet he's probably smart enough to have assistants who complement him in these areas.
I like AKA's point about "team" development as well. Certainly didn't happen much last year - although do keep in mind that most consider UK a tournament team without the loss of Noel. Time will tell how this season turns out.
NO!! I can't say that because I agree with you. Where I disagree with people is when they go overboard in painting OAD players and that experience as being meaningless or shallow. Its like if you told me you loved your wife and I assumed that this must mean you hate all other women. No, you just prefer one over the other. The others can have value and don't necessarily deserve the demonization they get, right?
I never said anything about his recruiting...just that he wins on talent alone, horrible in game coach and horrible Xs and Os in my opinion. Thats why I said almost any college coach could do just as good or better given his rosters. If Cal had LSUs roster I'd say he would have lost at least 10 games already this year because he would just tell them to steet ball it.
Calipari's work at UMass showed he can win without insane talent. He did get it at Memphis with Rose, Evans but still did what no one else was doing there. People are seeming to forget his first few years at UK he's done incredibly well. Last year was obviously bad, but doesn't mean its going to be the norm. This team isn't like 2012, isn't the fab four..but they can still become very good come tourney time if the Harrisons and WCS get their heads out of their butts.
I think you are taking my argument to me an all or nothing approach. I am not saying Calipari CAN'T develop talent or that he never has. I said that in my opinion that is an area he is below average at. There is no perfect coach out there and all of them excel in certain areas and are deficient in others. I wouldn't trade Billy Donovan for any coach in the NBA or NCAA but he has weaknesses as well. I think he thrives in his ability to develop talent (along with his assistant coaches) and has a sure track record in that. I think he is a phenomenal recruiter (though not at Calipari level). That being said I think he isn't as strong in his game day coaching (whether it is with end of game situations or the dreaded inbound play). Don't get me wrong he is still a good game day coach but he has some deficiencies there.
Josh Harrellson and Darius Miller are two clear examples of players that Cal DID develop. I won't argue that. I disagree with many of your other examples though. Statistically Terrance Jones, Kyle Wiltjer, and Doron Lamb showed very minimal improvement. You can speak of "intangibles" but they didn't show up on the stat sheet. Doron Lamb came in as a phenomenal 3 pt shooter and he continued largely unchanged in that role in his sophomore year. Jones was stud his freshman year and he increased his efficiency as a sophomore for sure so he did have some development but not a vast amount. Wiltjer, when you look at advanced statistics, really didn't improve much at all.
The big example you give is Patrick Patterson. He may give credit for improvement in his perimeter game but boy his stats don't show improvement overall.
He played identical mpg as a sophomore and junior. As a sophomore he scored 3 more ppg, shot a better %, 1 more apg, 2 more rpg, and 1 more bpg. He was literally universally better statistically as a sophomore with the exception of he started taking and making 3's as a junior. He took 1 his whole sophomore year so obviously he did feel Cal improved his perimeter game because he came more confident taking 3's.
As for Alex Poythress, look up his stats and advanced stats as they tell a different story then you do. He lost some money by coming back this year.
Calipari should coach in the NBA...just tossing that out.
Yeah Cal, take your slimy self and get out of our league!
Just an observation, but it seems that many KY players that "come back" might risk a decline in their stats, or at least minimal improvement, due largely to the overwhelming star power of the next incoming class. I bet Cal does not try to sell that when he is recruiting.
Hard to disagree with most of what you say here. I do still a little in a few areas but I certainly can't prove that I'm right. I'm probably less likely to look at stats as you are. I think Poythress is a good example of this. Last year he was depended on so much more than this year and is now playing a different role. Could he have played this years role last year? I don't think we would have seen the same consistent effort or confidence that we're seeing this year, but I can't know this for sure obviously. Oddly his 3pt shooting has fallen off this year.
Like I said, I'm not trying to say you're wrong. My perspective of Cal's ability to develop is just a little different at this point. I agree its not his strength and have always said his real role is to recruit, implement his philosophy, motivate/manage egos. I also agree that with Billy you gator fans shouldn't be wanting for anything.
I think that it is really tough to determine how much of a player's development has to do with the coaching vs. the efforts of the player. Sometimes a big sophomore jump might actually be an indication that the coach did a poor job of identifying the player's value early on.
Chandler Parsons obviously got better every year. But you know what? He is still doing that. He looks like a much better today than he was as a senior at Florida. What do we do there? And what about Patrick Young? The guy came here as a risk to leave after one year, and four years later, he may not even make the draft. Just like Boynton before him. Is that on Donovan?
I think that Donovan is very responsible for our teams' successes, but I think that most of a player's development is due to the player. The 04s were great on their own, but Donovan definitely had a hand in maximizing their skills playing together. However, I don't think that Noah and Horford are great NBA players because of Donovan. I certainly don't think that Donovan hurt their development, but Noah and Horford are great largely because of Noah and Horford (and their parents and/or God depending on your belief system).
Some players are overhyped based on their measurables, as in Young's case. Where they are projected in the draft many times has to do with the depth (or lack of it) of talent eligible in that particular class.
I certainly agree with this. However, if we apply this logic to UK, Cal may be doing a fantastic job with mediocre players that were simply over-hyped. And if we apply this logic to Noah, maybe he was simply under-hyped.
What is bothersome to you? It's bothersome to me that it's the end of January and Calipari still has to call every set and help them with being in position. Please tell me you aren't offended by him doing this lmao
It's bothersome that he has to do that, not that he did it. Harrisons just don't seem to get it. Young gets it, everyone else including sometimes Randle just doesn't seem to(and palson of course). Dakari is getting it, Randle has at times then kind of forgets too. Though I blame the Harrisons for not getting Randle the ball EVERY possession, which you have to do with such a freak. Patric Young is not remotely as gifted as Randle offensively but I almost guarantee he touches the ball more times a game. Young early on shot a little more than needed but he has kind of had to take over as the guy on offense..though he could do a better job getting Randle the ball as well.
Which Kentucky players would you be speaking about? If the current players are scared of competition of a new freshmen coming in, then they need to go. I've said it many times to be one and done is RARE, it's not something that should be very often.
See I don't think Randle needs the ball down low as much as you say. He is like a black hole...our players stop playing when he gets the ball most times. Randle is still learning how to pass out of triple teams. He needs to move on offense and get open and be a better teammate IMHO. The wrath of these team spans many layers lol
We have Marcus Lee, Dominique Hawkins, and Derek Willis who are going to be 4 year players.....next years recruiting class has 4 yr players as well. I'm sure Calipari won't be here when they graduate.
This is the most concerning thing I saw last night. Yes, even worse than the air ball...
Watch and see the UK players (not) rush to help up a hustling Dakari Johnson.