Just the facts on elite coaches

Discussion in 'Swamp Gas' started by SeaBud, Oct 13, 2013.

  1. wingtee
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    wingtee Well-Known Member

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    So because the ACC has 3 teams in the top 10 this year that myth can be cast away on Jimbo?
  2. gatorkev_85
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    gatorkev_85 Member

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    I agree he was given a team that was thin on both sides of the ball along the lines. But why has he not being in more olinemen. He sure has brought in plenty of dlinemen during his time. He bring in a good amount last year and should be bringing in at least 5 in my eyes this year. I like what he's gotten from last years class and this years class with the skilled positions. But we need some big guys up front to pass block. Could it be that he is recruiting guys that are great run blockers but average pass blockers.
  3. GatorChoice
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    GatorChoice Well-Known Member

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    This is a message board, so post what you want, but this is disingenuous at best. Of course it is an attempt to damn him as a failure, more specifically as a coach who will never be "elite".
  4. Minister_of_Information
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    Minister_of_Information I'm your huckleberry Premium Member

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    We were co-champs of the east last year.
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  5. gatorkev_85
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    gatorkev_85 Member

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    I think he could be elite if and only if he bring in a highly respectable o/c and gave him full control over the offense. I'm talking about everything that has to do with the offense. He gets to run his design of offense his plays his players. Cause let's be real as long as Muschamp is the coach UF will have a top 10 D. Honest question. If Cam Cameron was our o/c right now and was given the keys to drive how he wants, would we still have 2 loses?
  6. corpgator
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    corpgator Well-Known Member

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    Yes, so many. 1 was too many. Now we're on number 2 in the last decade.
  7. Ofg8r
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    Ofg8r Active Member

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    When Champ was hired, he hired Weiss and said publicly --" (paraphrasing)it is his offense. I am a defensive coach. )

    When he hired Pease, everyone somehow assumed that he reversed his intent and sat on the OC. His words are taken out of context to prove the point.

    Champ has said that only one thing counts; and that is winning. If he thought that what he was doing made it harder to win, I don't think he would do it.

    I do not understand why knowledgeable football fans think that he would do something that everyone seems to understand is counter-productive. Especially, since his job is always on the line. Do you really think his ego is so inflated that he would stifle an experienced OC?

    So, far over the past 1.5 years--I would never count the first year given that he had a program in shambles--he has lost four games. In two of those the offense turned the ball over a total of 11 times. It does not matter what you are tying to do if you turn the ball over like that. In another his team did not show up to play a game that they apparently did not care about. So, I do not think any of those reflect on the soundness of his coaching philosophy.

    Now yesterday he got beat by a coach who ran exactly the kind of offense that Champ wants to run. He obviously ran it with bigger, tougher, more talented players.

    So how the hell do we discern from that that there is a problem with what Champ wants to do
    ?

    Gator 85 I just do not follow your point at all. Tell me, can you look at a high school lineman and determine whether he will be able to run block, but not pass block at the college level? I think the answer is that Champ is trying to get the best offensive linemen that he can recruit. The problem is two fold. First, he needs a lot of them, and he needs them yesterday. Secondly, there are only so many to go around, and every other coach at every other major program is competing for the same ones. You don't get to just say I want you, and you and you.

    Most people figure that you need about 15 OLINEMEN to put five competent ones on the field at any time. Of the 15, probably 5 to 7 will never develop into SEC caliber linemen. The others for the most part will take about 2 to 3 years to reach that point. If the cupboard is pretty bare when you take the program; 1/2 of the way through your third season is early days for rebuilding a SEC line.

    There are obvious problems on the line, again. Someone on one of the threads talked about next year when Tyler Moore is at his natural position of guard, and was pooh poohed. I have agreed for about three weeks--after watching him on every play-- that Tyler Moore is not a fit at tackle. He can probably compete at guard. But, Green went down and Brown is apparently a work in progress, to be charitable, so there is Tyler. Humphrey is clearly not ready for the SEC as a sophomore; not surprising, and it does not mean that he won't be an excellent tackle in time. Halapio is not up to speed after his injury, and may not be this season. So, the Oline is once again a patchwork and not ready for prime time. We had hoped for better. We expected Halapao to be a healthy beast. We expected Green to be better after a year as a starter. We had perhaps unrealistic expectations for Humphrey. We expected Garcia and Moore, coming from conferences that GC posters sneer at, to be superior SEC linemen; even though in Moore's case, at least, he is not very experienced.

    Some people seemed to think that Murphy could do what Brantley and Driskel could not; consistently make plays while running for his life.

    I have watched a lot of football in the past 60 years or so. One thing I know for certain is that you can make no judgements about in aspect of the offense--including play calling-- if the offensive line is not sound.
  8. WESGATORS
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    WESGATORS Well-Known Member

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    Apologize if this has been mentioned already, but *technically* we were co-champs of the Eastern division last year. No I didn't celebrate it any more than you did, but it fits the qualification that you ask for.

    [EDIT: I see MOI caught it first]

    Go GATORS!
    ,WESGATORS
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  9. bgator85
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    bgator85 VIP Member

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    Technically, Zook fits the qualification as well then.
  10. swampbabe
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    swampbabe Well-Known Member

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    Context is your friend. Spurrier leaves us hanging without too many options. Meyer leaves us a mess as well. Besides look at all of these threads, why would anyone in their right mind want to coach with this whiny fan base. Honestly, the worst thing about being a Gator is other Gators fans.
  11. KronoGator
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    KronoGator Well-Known Member

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    Which shows just how silly it is to count it, we didn't go to Atlanta, we weren't really champions of anything.
  12. SeaBud
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    SeaBud Active Member

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    You apparently are unable to look at history dispassionately and attack the messenger instead of the message. Please read my posts. They do NOT say CWM will never be elite and I pointed out that history is NOT causal.

    Just as bad as the "whiny" fans many complain about are the fans who are incapable of analyzing the Gators in an objective fashion. It is ok to say: "Yes, the history indicates success usually comes quickly to elite coaches, but this is different because: (1) CWM is a first time head coach (and show cases where 1st timers succeed) or (2) for the last 3 years our O line has been objectively worse than any O line those coaches had over the last quarter century (as Ofg8r arguers)". So, GatorChoice, please cut the crap with me at least - nothing disingenuous about facts or intended by my post.

    As to the facts, for the last 3 years our O line has been decent at run blocking. Hypothesis as to why that is true but they struggle so mightily in pass protection? Is the heart of our offensive poor performance for 3 years the O line or is it more specifically we have a poor passing game - from OL to QB play to RB blitz pickup to WR routes? (and saying our passing game has been bad for 3 years is neither whiny nor not factual as the statistics prove). If we fix the passing game to balance the O, i think we are very good.
  13. gatorwilk1
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    gatorwilk1 VIP Member

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    The outcome of Sat game seems pretty simple, LSU has better running back than us, much better wide receivers, a very good QB and a more imaginative OC to keep us off balance. On offense have multiple breakdowns at left tackle who is not good enough to be playing that position and we had breakdowns on other parts of the O-line at critical points in the game.
  14. phideltgator
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    phideltgator Active Member

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    I would agree LSU has much more talent on offense. Makes one wonder why the Gators do not sign up players of equal quality?
  15. samit23
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    samit23 Well-Known Member

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    Less talent? All of these coaches had ether rosters the day they stepped on campus,

    Sent from my iPhone using GatorCountry
  16. regator
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    regator Member

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    If you think USC is = to UF you are wrong.

    There is a reason these coaches that have won championships have for the most part been at a realitively small number of schools.

    Muschamp is at one of those. Spurrier isn't.
  17. regator
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    regator Member

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    Yeah and Zook was his first one and we are now on our second.

    We will see how that works out for him
  18. Distant Gator
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    Distant Gator Well-Known Member

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    I've been saying this for a while- if Champ would bring in an elite OC we would be worldbeaters. I live in upstate SC and my kids go to Clemson- that's a great example.

    Dabo was struggling out of the gate. He could recruit but the program was ugly. I remember some mediocre seasons and some ugly minor bowl losses. It was the same old, same old, for Clemson, with no light at the end of the tunnel.

    Then Dabo hired Chad Morris and let him run the show. Morris had an immediate effect in his first season. While Clemson had hiccups their trajectory is way up.

    Morris makes a ton of money, and gets a lot of glory. He probably takes a bit of shine off of Dabo.

    But everyone works together and fills their role. Dabo recruits and inspires, and the OC runs the offense (and runs it very well.)

    Why doesn't Champ do this? Give up some dough, give up some glory, hire a REAL OC, coach the D, and let's win national championships?
  19. ovillegator
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    ovillegator VIP Member

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    Great points. Thank you!

    Though we had a great record last year, it was clear we weren't quite as good talent-wise as that record might indicate. A lot of cards fell our way last year. This year they've fallen the other way. That happens.

    If it's going to take a few years to get back to elite status, I'm okay with that. I only ask our team to play smart and play to win, not to lose close.

    Go Gators!!!
  20. HungaryGator
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    HungaryGator New Member

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    Great job OP. The sunshine pumpers have nothing so they are down to "you can't compare Muschamp with successful coaches in the past"....for some reason.......

    The fact is that good coaches tend to be large and in charge quickly. Last year gave us hope but this year is destroying whatever goodwill Muschamp earned last year. Unless this season takes a dramatic U-turn immediately, he will be on the hotseat next year and whether expressly spoken or not, he will have to win 10 games, win the division AND beat fsu and UGA (the last part is especially non negotiable) or he will be fired. People's patience is running out.

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