Just can't explain it...abortion

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by QGator2414, Dec 24, 2013.

  1. wcj786
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    wcj786 VIP Member

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    I will tend to disagree on this. The main portion of the Republican party always more focused on economic issues more than social/religious issues. This is because, even though the majority of religious people are Republican, there are differences in their religious stance concerning social issues. There are some pretty bedrock social/religious beliefs, such as the right to life/pro-life agenda. But, as a whole, many religions differ on other social issues.

    What you are referring to is that Santorum was vocally advocating his religious views during his campaign, whereas in the past, candidates were less overt with their religious beliefs. You can go back to Reagan and find that there has been no major shift in the Republican party stance on many of these issues, except that they have edged more liberal since then.
  2. wcj786
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    You are trying to talk to a liberal and explain personal responsibility. That is impossible, as not one liberal actually believes in those two words when used back to back. Personal Responsibility is anathema to a liberal. They despise even the hint that someone should have to take reposibility for their own actions. That is why they worship government so much. They can transfer their own responsibility to government and argue it is the government who is responsible for taking care of them, not themselves.

    In other words, they think they should be able to do anything they want without having to suffer any consequences. The government should mandate that the rest of the country take on that burden.
  3. MichiGator2002
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    The ultimate innocence of the life in question and the ultimate special betrayal involved in ending that life given her total dependence and total vulnerability. Not to mention what is in the vast and prohibitive majority of cases, the vain and superficial motives for doing it. None of those others can lay a finger on it metaphysically speaking.

    I say it's the most unChristian, not that it's the most socially damnable or worthy of human punishment.
  4. tideh8rGator
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    Agree 100%.

    But I DO think that support for this abomination makes one eminently worthy of punishment in the eyes of a holy God.

    To claim that God would ever sanction the specific, directed, purposeful extermination of a human life simply for the sake of convenience, carries one beyond the pale of any conceivable lowest floor of morality. This is what abortion supporters advocate in favor of when they take the uncompromising "no exceptions" stance that the vast majority do.
  5. Gatormb
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    Gatormb Well-Known Member

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    Agree 100%.

    2. The Bible teaches that children are a blessing.

    God commanded our first parents to "Be fertile and multiply" (Genesis 1:28). Why? God Himself is fertile. Love always overflows into life. When the first mother brought forth the first child, she exclaimed, "I have brought forth a man with the help of the Lord" (Genesis 4:1). The help of the Lord is essential, for He has dominion over human life and is its origin. Parents cooperate with God in bringing forth life. Because this whole process is under God’s dominion, it is sinful to interrupt it. The prophet Amos condemns the Ammonites "because they ripped open expectant mothers in Gilead" (Amos 1:13).

    "Truly children are a gift from the Lord; the fruit of the womb is a reward" (Psalm 127:3).

    3. The Bible teaches that the child in the womb is truly a human child, who even has a relationship with the Lord.

    The phrase "conceived and bore" is used repeatedly (see Genesis 4:1,17) and the individual has the same identity before as after birth. "In sin my mother conceived me," the repentant psalmist says in Psalm 51:7. The same word is used for the child before and after birth (Brephos, that is, "infant," is used in Luke 1:41 and Luke 18:15.)

    God knows the preborn child. "You knit me in my mother’s womb . . . nor was my frame unknown to you when I was made in secret" (Psalm 139:13,15). God also helps and calls the preborn child. "You have been my guide since I was first formed . . . from my mother’s womb you are my God" (Psalm 22:10-11). "God… from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace" (St. Paul to the Galatians 1:15).

    4. Scripture repeatedly condemns the killing of the innocent.

    This flows from everything that has been seen so far. God’s own finger writes in stone the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" (Exodus 20:13, Deuteronomy 5:17) and Christ reaffirms it (Matthew 19:18 - notice that He mentions this commandment first). The Book of Revelation affirms that (unrepentant) murderers cannot enter the kingdom of heaven (Revelation 22:15).

    The killing of children is especially condemned by God through the prophets. In the land God gave his people to occupy, foreign nations had the custom of sacrificing some of their children in fire. God told His people that they were not to share in this sin. They did, however, as Psalm 106 relates: "They mingled with the nations and learned their works…They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons, and they shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and their daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, desecrating the land with bloodshed" (Psalm 106:35, 37-38).

    This sin of child-sacrifice, in fact, is mentioned as one of the major reasons that the Kingdom of Israel was destroyed by the Assyrians and the people taken into exile. "They mutilated their sons and daughters by fire…till the Lord, in his great anger against Israel, put them away out of his sight" (2 Kings 17:17-18).

    http://www.priestsforlife.org/brochures/thebible.html
  6. Gatormb
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  7. Gatormb
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    Michi, appears to be the denomination tailored for ultra liberals. Wright/Obama members.

    Theological criticism[edit]
    More conservative members of the UCC have complained that the UCC has lost members because of its "theological surrender to the moral and spiritual confusion of contemporary culture.."[32]This movement has focused its complaints on the "often radically liberal political agenda" of the UCC.[32]

    Social criticism[edit]
    Conservatives have complained that UCC members are "probably the most left-leaning of all major U.S. denominations."[41] These critics have complained that the UCC attempts to control "how liberal Christians should think in politically correct terms about climate controversies, socialized medicine, the U.S. presence in Iraq, immigration and the Welfare State."[41]

    Criticism over same-sex marriage[edit]
    The UCC has been severely criticized for its stand on same-sex marriage.[citation needed] In fact, citing differences over "the membership and ministry of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender Christians," the UCC's Puerto Rico Conference left the church in 2006.[42]

    Criticism of sex education[edit]
    Critics have complained that the UCC's focus on sex education, including the distribution of condoms, does not provide appropriate moral context for sex and has failed in "reinforcing the traditional Christian ethic reserving sex for marriage."[43]

    Sources of criticism[edit]
    The conservative-leaning Institute on Religion and Democracy has been consistently critical of the UCC, complaining that the denomination "is stuck in the liberal theology and politics of the 1960s" and makes conservatives feel unwelcome.[44]

    Internal critics have also complained that the UCC has "set on a course of dishonest political activism" without the knowledge of the local congregations.[45]

    Outcries have been so strong among conservative congregations that they have ended their affiliations with the denomination, in many cases terminating decades of association with one of the UCC's four major traditions. This became especially pronounced in the months following the decision of General Synod 25 to endorse same-sex marriage. Three denominations have in particular been beneficiaries of their decisions: the National Association of Congregational Christian Churches (founded in the late 1950s in opposition to the UCC merger), the Conservative Congregational Christian Conference (founded in the 1940s as a more conservative alternative), and the Evangelical Association of Reformed and Congregational Christian Churches (founded in the 1990s, mostly by E&R-heritage churches). However, quite a number of withdrawing congregations have decided to operate independently, influenced perhaps by the recent growth and success of non-denominational fellowships throughout the U.S.[citation needed]

    Still other congregations have decided to remain in the denomination but withhold financial support for "Our Church's Wider Mission" (OCWM). They say their goal is to avoid funding conference and national programs and policies they find objectionable.[citation needed] Many of those churches are openly affiliated with two conservative "renewal" organizations, the Biblical Witness Fellowship and the North Carolina-based Faithful and Welcoming group, both of which have tried, largely unsuccessfully, to lobby the General Synod (and some conferences) to renounce politically and theologically liberal stances on a number of issues.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Church_of_Christ
  8. gatornana
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    Whoa.....you've put a lot of words in my mouth. I've never posted reasoning along the lines of lifestyle to support abortion. I was posting to the original link. You took it too far and I don't appreciate that. That tells me you jumped to conclusions to judge me rather than think about the points I was trying to make.
  9. gatornana
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    My parents were the ones who brought us up in this church. Ours is a small congregation that is nothing like you post here.....my guess is that because it's tolerant, accepting and compassionate to all people and has made efforts to conform to modern day life, it's considered liberal there for bad.
  10. DaveFla
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    DaveFla Well-Known Member

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    Long, but worth the time to read, as I am sure you will agree


    http://www.szasz.com/undergraduate/carrcapstone.pdf
  11. DaveFla
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    DaveFla Well-Known Member

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    "also convicted..."

    No. I understand the point. You, on the other hand, are either refusing to acknowledge it, or are conveniently ignoring it.
  12. mdgator05
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    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    That doesn't state that she would break a law, just be found mentally unstable for purposefully trying to make herself less functional. Possibly true, but still not illegal to do so in the US. Just might lead people to take a look at your mental capacity.
  13. Gatormb
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    Gatormb Well-Known Member

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    Does your small congregation also support gay marriage and practicing gay ministry leaders?

    If so they are a liberal church. Not saying gays cannot be Christian so please don't misunderstand.

    BTW, the Episcopal church also went liberal which why so so many have left for the Anglican Church. They support abortion and have an openly practicing gay Bishop.
  14. gatornana
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    It's definitely a liberal church. We've had one gay minister however, he wasn't open about his sexuality. We didn't know he was gay until he left.....many were surprised he'd kept it secret because no one would have cared. He was awesome, very popular and effective as a minister. Our other ministers have been married, family men and the congregation, elderly and families.

    To clarify, I'm explaining the church, not defending it. It doesn't require defending because there's nothing wrong with a liberal leaning Christian church.

    When a Christian church like UCC or the Episcopal church has a stance where it supports abortion, what it really is supporting is equality for women.....there's trust, rather than fear or misplaced harsh judgment, extended to women to make their own decisions.
  15. QGator2414
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    QGator2414 VIP Member

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    Should not the church be concerned about the Cross and what the interpretation of the Word of God actually is to the best of our abilities vs supporting a woman's equality in choosing when and where they decide to create a life followed by supporting the idea they should be able to kill that life (especially if they find out that life will be more vulnerable than most)?
  16. dynogator
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    dynogator Well-Known Member

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    Any crime against children is against innocence. "Ultimate betrayal," covers a lot of ground. Giving a child life just to make it a live in a psychological and physical hell seems like a fearsome betrayal.

    As much as I dislike and disagree with abortion, the living child will always command my greatest sympathy.

    "UnChristian," is a judgment call. Myself, I'd put molesting priests right up there. Death may not have been involved, but what a betrayal of one's position. The wolf in shepherd's clothing.
  17. dynogator
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    dynogator Well-Known Member

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    Gross generalizations are just that.
  18. JerseyGator01
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    If it wasn't for churches, we might still have slavery in this country. I think churches should by and large stay out of politics but some issues are literally larger than life.
  19. gatornana
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    Some of God's word instructs us to help our most vulnerable......we don't do a very good job of that. The first cuts effect children who're in danger from child abuse/neglect, foster/group homes and the medical/therapy care needed for alleviating the suffering of severely handicapped children.

    You stated up thread that you want these kids to have these services but not at the expense of growing government. But you'll grow government to prosecute and put in prison these parents for murder.
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2013
  20. QGator2414
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    This is what I said and it implies nothing close to what you assert...

    "Also the premise/idea that government through taxes is the only way to help people in need is wrong. In fact it is the wasteful way to go..."

    "The premise that the government must grow or must be involved if it stops allowing the legal killing of these precious children is just wrong. That is all I am saying."

    Now if one worships government and believes it is the only way to provide these services as inefficient as it does...

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