Just can't explain it...abortion

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by QGator2414, Dec 24, 2013.

  1. tim85
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    tim85 Premium Member

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    Since when exactly is "pious" an adjective we're afraid of being described as? I might come off as pious, but I'm not nearly as pious as it may have sounded to you.

    I said it previously and you didn't refute it; in your mind, a woman's "right" to dominion over her body, which to you include babies under the age of 20 weeks old, is of a higher priority than that baby getting a chance to live. That's essentially your argument. I think it's pretty nuts, personally. I just, in my right mind, can't even seriously consider the idea of these supposed rights being above human life.

    Yes, we're men. We can't get pregnant, we can't experience that, I understand that. I'll never have to experience the pain of a post-rape pregnancy, or even pregnancy in general. This doesn't make me incapable of pointing out something that I believe is universally wrong. You keep saying, "I'm a man, I won't have to go through that, I can't imagine the pain of being in that situation," and you use that sympathy to basically say, "Since I feel so bad for you, and that must be terrible, you shouldn't have to do what's really right. Just do whatever will make you feel better. Right or wrong be damned."

    As I said before there are many women who have chosen to have their babies through terrible and tragic circumstances, including rape. They chose to do it. If those woman can succeed, if they can do that, then other women can too.
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2013
  2. gatorpa
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    gatorpa Well-Known Member

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    Or flip it to the 20 year old quad..... They need someone to do everything for them, do we just cut them off? Or the 70 year old dementia person, just stop everything because they a dependent on a host. Is it the host's choice then?

    Not simple questions.
  3. AzCatFan
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    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

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    Once again, total dependence alone does not give anyone the right to decide whether or not someone can kill someone. A newborn is completely dependant, but that doesn't give a parent the right to kill it. At the same time, the parent should not be forced to care for the baby with no options. We have dominion over our own selves and no other person should be able to hold us hostage.

    With a newborn, the parent can always give the child to family or up for adoption. In fact, in Arizona we have a safe baby law where within 96 hours of birth, someone can drop off a newborn at a police station, fire station, church, or designated safe baby area and as long as the baby is safe, face no legal repercussions.

    But what choice does a pregnant woman have if she wants to abdicate her responsibility. Well, according to Tim, none. He says the life inside her has the right to hold the mother hostage regardless of circumstances.

    I then asked does human life take precedence in all cases and posed a hypothetical with a kidney transplant and only one, specific possible donor. If the donor refused to undergo the operation and save the life, do we make him a criminal? Force him to do the surgery? Tim said no because the potential donor didn't ask to be in the situation. Well, neither did a woman who got pregnant by rape, yet Tim would give her only one option, and that is carry to term. So I ask again, why is the life of the fetus more important than the life of the guy who needs a new kidney?

    I believe we have dominion over our own bodies and no other person should be able to demand us to do something for him/her. And with that free will comes choices people will make that not only will we not approve of, but it will leave us scratching our head. And in all cases but abortion, that free will ends when the rights of another is infringed. Don't want to care for your newborn?That is your right as long as you find proper care for the baby. But with a pregnant woman before 22 weeks? Biologically, there is nothing we can do to save the baby if she chooses not to care for it.

    And one last time, Tim, I ask you to put yourself in the shoes of a rape victim who got pregnant from it. Just because others kept the child, does that mean that had to be the answer for all? And say you were a career woman with no aspirations to ever have children, would you want someone like you telling you there is no choice, and despite the fact you did nothing wrong, the next 9 months your body doesn't belong to you any more?
  4. JerseyGator01
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    JerseyGator01 Well-Known Member

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    Hold the mother, hostage? Please. What crap. Straight from MSNBC.

    You keep using extreme examples and contradicting yourself.
  5. AzCatFan
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    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

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    So what would you call it if there is a pregnant woman that doesn't want to carry to term? If you have a better term that I could use, I'm all ears. But from the prospective of the woman, if she wants to abort but isn't allowed and she must take care of the baby, I think hostage is apt.

    And yes, I'm using extreme cases on purpose, as I have admitted. Because the baby in the extreme case is no less innocent than the one in a normal case. And if you allow abortion in one instance, you should allow it in all.
  6. tim85
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    tim85 Premium Member

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    Hold the mother hostage? Are you serious? This is a human life we're talking about. I think a lot of this comes down to your atheism. Life just isn't as precious if there's no soul.

    Firstly I said I think it's a false equivalency because they're just different situations. It's just not the same. Why use an alternate hypothetical situation that has nothing to do with abortion to make a point about it, when we are free to discuss the actual topic(abortion)?

    Careers, Personal triumphs, Personal goals, traveling, selfish desires < Human life. I can put myself in the woman's shoes to some extent, most of my friends would tell you I try to be a pretty empathetic person. But there's no feeling in the world that could justify terminating a baby's life. I think your examples of selfish me, me, me-type things and those being at a higher priority or importance than a baby's life say quite a bit about your perspective in life; and honestly, it's pretty saddening. I would be willing to wager that the hundreds of thousands of women who become pregnant at ages 16 and under all have dreams, ideas, hopes, and desires about their future. I would be willing to wager the vast majority of them wouldn't include becoming a teenager mother as part of those dreams. Yet, some are capable of sacrificing that - looking at the big picture, looking outside of themselves, to do not what is best for them(because in our world's eye, living your life to the maximum is what's best, not living righteously) - but what is right. At the end of the day you would tell me that right and wrong aren't the same for everyone, and I would disagree.
  7. tim85
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    tim85 Premium Member

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    I would use terms like miraculous, beautiful, essential, (the most)meaningful, significant, etc as opposed to calling a woman who is pregnant as being held hostage. Being held hostage by probably the most beautiful thing a human being can do? Here are my hands, I'm ready to go, if that's your idea of being held hostage.
  8. AzCatFan
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    AzCatFan Well-Known Member

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    Your lack of empathy for a woman who is pregnant and doesn't want to be is very telling. In a perfect world, every woman who got pregnant would be as ecstatic as you claim you would be and as ecstatic as my wife and I were when we found out. Obviously, we don't live in that world as there are plenty of abortions daily, and even more women agonizing over the decision.

    And you can claim a person is being selfish for not wanting to give birth, but consider the career woman who was raped again. Her assailant already took so much from her, and now come along and tell her she had no other choice but to carry her assailant's baby to term while he also gets to steal her career as well.

    I'd tell her she needs to think and weigh her options and repercussions. If asked, I'd encourage her to keep the baby. But I'm the end, she's a grown woman and it's her body, her career, and her decision. And it's not my place to tell her that because someone forcibly for her pregnant, she had no choice in the matter over what happens the next 9 months in her life.

    Believe me, I did not come to this conclusion lightly. And I assure you, I hold human life in high regard, atheism and all. But I don't believe anyone has The right to demand what a fetus demands of the mother if the mother is unwilling. Just like the kidney example, which does apply. A person should not be able to demand another to save his life. And I ask again, why do you consider it criminal for a woman who was raped to abort, but not criminal for someone to refuse a kidney to a dying person? Both the fetus and the person needing the transplant didn't ask to be put in the situation. Neither did the mother or the person who can give the kidney. And if human life always trumps all, should we not force the guy to give up his kidney just as you would force the mother to carry to term? Or are you going to claim false equivalency again and not even attempt to answer?
  9. Spurffelbow833
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    There is no hostage unless there is a willful act of kidnapping. By your line of reasoning, we should allow abortion as an option for people who are held "hostage" by spouses or children who become invalids.
  10. QGator2414
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    That ended when the woman through her lustful desires with the lustful desires of another man created the life wrt to empathy in this situation. Killing an innocent life is the least empathetic thing one could do...

    If you don't want to be a mother then keep your pants on.

    As I mentioned before wrt to rape...I believe the morning after pill is a reasonable remedy from my knowledge on preventing conception.
  11. MichiGator2002
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    A woman who is pregnant because of rape; a person whose leg was severely fractured in a hit and run -- 9 month recovery time in either instance. I wouldn't support killing an innocent third party to speed up either victim's recovery.
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  12. DaveFla
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    DaveFla Well-Known Member

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    Let's ask Kermit Gosnell?

    Why would his procedure be perfectly legal had the child not yet emerged from the womb, yet a crime the moment it has?

    Inconsistency at best.... Murder at worst.
  13. Gatormb
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    Tim, you hit the nail on the head with the athesium comment. If thereis no God we are just all lucky protoplasum whose morals are formed by society as opposed to a conscience being an inherent gift from God.

    No God, no absolute truth. All bets aare off. Whatever floats your boat. Man's law becomes the law of the land. See Nazi Germany. Killing Jews was legal. Now compare 6 million killed over 52 million since Roe vs Wade. We have our own halocost.
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  14. DaveFla
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    DaveFla Well-Known Member

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    Does the same hold true for a woman who is unhappy with the appearance of her own body, and suddenly feels the need to eliminate it? Or, why suddenly call it murder after the baby is born, and she no longer wants to "care for it"? We shouldn't force her to, right?

    I'm so tired of hearing the argument that "its a woman's body let her do with it as she pleases..."

    We don't allow women (or men) to mutilate their own bodies simply because they want too, right ? Additionally, if this is true, then why is prostitution illegal?

    Don't feed me this BS.
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  15. gatornana
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    There are no absolutes on the topic of abortion.....chromosomal abnormalities or pregnancy from rape are grey areas where one has the right to make their own decision. To do otherwise, you're infringing on another's freedom......one that you would resist if the same was imposed on you.

    We have many who are concerned about their freedom to own a gun.....yet accidental shootings or gun violence takes many innocent lives, among them children. Despite that carnage, we still hold our freedom to own a gun dear resisting any attempts at regulating gun ownership.
  16. mdgator05
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    Kermit Gosnell was a mother? Who knew?

    You may not like it, but somebody becoming a person when they are born is not inconsistent. In fact, it is really quite consistent. Not necessarily moral, but certainly not inconsistent.

    BTW, it would have been a crime for him to kill them right before birth too, so your point is especially poor and should be reformulated to better reflect your argument.
  17. mdgator05
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    Actually, I am pretty sure you are allowed to mutilate your own body if you want to do so. We don't throw cutters into jail for cutting. We don't regulate what type of tattoo or piercing you can get (although we do regulate who can do it commercially which is relatively consistent with the fact that we regulate who can commercially provide abortion services).

    Prostitution is a reasonable point. In some places it is legal. The libertarian argument is that it should be legal everywhere. If a woman (or man) wishes to do that, then they should be allowed to do so. I would provide the counter-example of pornography as an example of a situation in which a person is legally allowed to have a sexual relationship and be paid for it. The inconsistency is in making prostitution illegal, not in the principle that women (and men) tend to have control over most aspects of their bodies.
  18. MichiGator2002
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    I don't see where rape or incest or chromosomal abnormalities are a grey area for the ultimate moral question. They are emotional grey areas for the difficulty the morally right answer causes the involved parties. There is no point other than the mother's immediate and emergency health and safety that turns that corner, and at that point it stopped being a question of moral license to exterminate but of saving a life that can be saved when both can't be.
  19. tim85
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    tim85 Premium Member

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    I disagree. A philosophy professor I had some time back used to say something along the lines of, "Philosophy shows us most things in life are black and white, people just don't want to take the time to sit and think or discuss them down to their fundamental ideas is the real issue." He went on to say that humans love to live in the gray, because it's easier and less painful, which most humans always aim for the easiest and painless route towards something. I agree with him.
  20. JerseyGator01
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    I was born with cancer as were all six other people in my gene pool. Life's not fair. Liberals constantly use the reasoning to justify the 1% and completely ignore the other tens of millions of abortions. Russia recently made it illegal for abortion providers to advertise. What's our excuse? Our pro-abortion government just keeps giving more and more money to Planned Parenthood every year as they perform more and more abortions ... decade after decade. America's motto: Don't think ... just abort.

    CORRUPTION RULES!!!!!

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