Jordan Davis: Will Things Be Different?

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by gator996, Aug 13, 2013.

  1. gator996
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    gator996 New Member

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    http://www.theroot.com/views/jordan-davis-will-things-be-different

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    Jordan Davis: Will Things Be Different?

    The case of another unarmed black teen shot in Florida by a man claiming self-defense heads to court.

    By: Janell Ross | Posted: July 19, 2013 at 12:56 AM


    (The Root) -- Just two days after a jury acquitted George Zimmerman, Jacksonville, Fla., lawyer Cory Strolla stood in the Florida State Court hallway and spoke to a huddle of reporters.

    "I worry they're going to say, 'We lost Zimmerman, so let's get Michael Dunn,' " Strolla said, referring to Florida State Attorney Angela Corey.

    Strolla, an experienced defense lawyer, said he was worried that Dunn, his client, will get the punishment that Zimmerman did not. In November 2012, Dunn, a 46-year-old white Florida software developer, shot and killed 17-year-old Jordan Davis, an unarmed black boy, after a verbal confrontation about loud music in a Jacksonville convenience-store parking lot. But victims-rights and gun control advocates, Jordan's parents and others watching the case fear that Strolla is terribly wrong and another Florida civilian with a gun will not be punished for taking the life of yet another unarmed black teen because, like Zimmerman, Dunn says he was afraid.

    Sometime between now and September, Dunn is expected to seek immunity -- that's an all-out free pass on any criminal or financial penalties -- in a "Stand your ground" hearing in front of a Florida judge. Dunn will have to convince the judge that he feared for his life. If that effort fails, a Florida judge and jury in one of the most conservative and gun-loving parts of the state will wade through an admixture of stereotypes and suspicion, as well as Florida gun-possession and weapons-use policies, to determine Dunn's fate.

    Some combination of that same cocktail sent Zimmerman home a free man. So Jordan's parents, gun control and victims-rights advocates are all asking the same question: Could it happen again?

    "As crazy as that sounds," said Sam Hoover, a staff attorney at the San Francisco-based nonprofit Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence, "that's a distinct possibility. The reality is that Florida law gives these shooters an escape."

    Zimmerman's lawyers did not make an explicit "Stand your ground" claim before his trial began, but testimony about the law was introduced. And because it is a part of Florida's legal code, "Stand your ground" language is included in the jury's instructions, something that could not have happened before the 2005 law was passed.
  2. g8orbill
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    g8orbill Gators VIP Member

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    996- from everything I have read this appears totally different than the TM/GZ situation. I am not sure how or why the SYG law would even apply to this case.
  3. HallGator
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    Zimmerman did not use SYG in his defense.
  4. gator996
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    gator996 New Member

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    Dunn has claimed that he saw a gun in the SUV....no gun has ever been recovered.

    He asserts his right to believe his life was in danger.

    That's all the SYG language requires...the shooter believing in his fear even if it isn't justified.


    Dunn's case is different because there are actual witnesses from outside the store who do not support Dunn's version of events.

    Dunn's own girlfriend has submitted testimony that's going to incriminate him...

    The saddest part of this story is that Dunn & girlfriend drive off, ate a pizza, watched the news coverage, and went to bed that night after shooting the kid.
  5. gator996
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    gator996 New Member

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    Irrelevant....the SYG language is part of the general self defense law and was read into the jury instructions in the Zimmerman case...
  6. HallGator
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    It's not irrelevant. SYG was not used in the Zimmerman case. Self defense was.


    Personally I believe Dunn has a hard case to prove here.
  7. gator996
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    gator996 New Member

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    You are wrong.

    SYG was part of the jury instructions to assert self defense.


    You're right that Zimmerman did not move for a SYG hearing but the language of SYG is written into Florida law whether or not SYG is invoked.
  8. gator996
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    gator996 New Member

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  9. HallGator
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    I'll let the other attorneys chime in on this. Just because the NYT says it is doesn't make it a fact.
  10. QGator2414
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    First time I have heard of this case and see no real similarities. I started skimming but...

    Fired multiple shots. Left the scene. Did not contact police. Arrested immediately after questioning.

    Maybe he has something more for his defense if he tries to apply SYG which is another dissimilar thing.

    I think this is a flame thread...
  11. MichiGator2002
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    I'm so tired of articles ignorantly premised on the legally defective assumption that the Zimmerman case was a miscarriage of justice. It wasn't. A conviction would have been.

    In this case, because the acts are materially different in a bunch of ways making the comparison pretty much irrelevant, I don't think the guy is going to prevail on the self-defense argument in any context. I think prosecutors will be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did not have a reasonable fear, because it's a helluva lot easier to disprove a reasonable fear of a shotgun that wasn't actually there at all than it is to split hairs and prove that fearing for your life "just" because someone might be on top of you wailing on your head isn't reasonable.

    996, the language in the instructions, the fact that there is no duty to retreat... you do know that is the majority rule among the 50 states, right? This has been repeated enough to make it clear? It's what the National Conference of Bar Examiners considers the law applicable to the MBE.
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  12. QGator2414
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    Well said and why the OP is flaming IMO...
  13. gator996
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    gator996 New Member

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    Who cares?

    The guy said SYG didn't apply and that's not true, right?


    Here's a better review of how SYG is inherent in the self-defense law whether or not SYG is asserted.

    It takes 6 minutes....watch it

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiaQvuPB4_k
  14. gator996
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    gator996 New Member

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    http://www.politicaljack.com/threads/apparently-many-who-followed-zimmerman-trial-missed-syg.56267/

    Many still seem unaware that SYG was in the Jury Instructions and impacted the verdict. In and effort to set the record straight on SYG and the Zimmerman trial, just so we are all on the same page, where SYG impacted the trial hopefully this clears it up. If you get your hands on the Jury Instruction you can see where SYG cancels out Manslaughter. Additionally, though the 2 jurors who have spoken have not been asked that targeted question, reading both descriptions of Manslaughter and SYG should answer it for you. Manslaughter looks at what you did prior to the killing, SYG only looks at the fight or moment of fear. Bottom line the jury could not even consider manslaughter enough to get past SYG. None of this matters now except that in Florida this still exists and other states have the same issue where they mimic Florida's Amendment and if it is placed in Jury Instructions in your state you probably need to understand this:

    "Jurors discussed Florida’s controversial Stand Your Ground self-defense law before rendering their not-guilty verdict in George Zimmerman’s trial, one of the jurors told CNN’s Anderson Cooper.

    The jurors struggled with the law and the jury instructions, said the juror, who spoke anonymously and was identified only by her court ID, B37.

    “The law became very confusing. It became very confusing,” she told Cooper Monday night. “We had stuff thrown at us. We had the second-degree murder charge, the manslaughter charge, then we had self defense, Stand Your Ground.”

    Juror B37 mentioned Stand Your Ground a second time of her own accord, saying the jury ultimately made its not-guilty verdict Saturday night based on the evidence and “because of the heat of the moment and the Stand Your Ground.”

    Still, the degree to which Stand Your Ground led to the not-guilty verdict is unclear and in dispute. Cooper never asked B37."

    Don't get hung up on that last paragraph as it is not a cancel element it is just what they are not asking. I highlighted it as it is important to note that everything said prior to that points to an answer in Paragraph #2. This is not written in cement as what is missing is no one asked that question but it does represent the complexity of all of this and why a jury may have their hands tied even trying to understand what these conflicts mean during deliberations.




    Jurors discussed Florida’s controversial Stand Your Ground self-defense law before rendering their not-guilty verdict in George Zimmerman’s trial, one of the jurors told CNN’s Anderson Cooper.

    The jurors struggled with the law and the jury instructions, said the juror, who spoke anonymously and was identified only by her court ID, B37.

    “The law became very confusing. It became very confusing,” she told Cooper Monday night. “We had stuff thrown at us. We had the second-degree murder charge, the manslaughter charge, then we had self defense, Stand Your Ground.”

    Juror B37 mentioned Stand Your Ground a second time of her own accord, saying the jury ultimately made its not-guilty verdict Saturday night based on the evidence and “because of the heat of the moment and the Stand Your Ground.”

    Still, the degree to which Stand Your Ground led to the not-guilty verdict is unclear and in dispute. Cooper never asked B37.

    Stand Your Ground allows a law-abiding citizen to “meet force with force, including deadly force” if he reasonably feels threatened in a confrontation. The NRA-drafted law, passed by the Florida Legislature in 2005, made two major changes to homicide cases:

    • It changed standard jury instructions, which previously held that a person had a duty to retreat by using “every reasonable means,” and,

    • It gave prospective defendants the right to immunity from prosecution. To make the immunity determination, the courts established pre-trial Stand Your Ground hearings.

    Gun-control advocates and many Democrats want to change or eliminate the law. Republicans, who control the Legislature, say the law has helped law-abiding citizens reduce violent crime, and they don’t want to change it.

    Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/07/16/3502481/juror-we-talked-stand-your-ground.html#storylink=cpy
  15. MichiGator2002
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    No, it's true, because SYG as such does pretty much refer to the immunity defense, not the trial defense. Again, that there is no duty to retreat is the majority rule in the country (you have still never acknowledged this), and isn't called "stand your ground" as a legal doctrine in really... any of them, when you use the phrase "stand your ground", the assumption is you are talking about the thing it most helpfully describes, which is the immunity defense.

    I honestly shudder at the idea of what sort of video would provide you "legal" "analysis" you'd deem authoritative, so I don't think I'll be watching that. Already get enough crappy legal fantasy watching 99% of all crime show episodes.
  16. MichiGator2002
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    Obviously you didn't know that self-defense has been a complete defense (i.e. including manslaughter) for pretty much forever and pretty much everywhere that has its legal roots in English common law, rather than just in Florida and just since 2006. Or you just wish to help deceive people on the subject?
  17. gator996
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    gator996 New Member

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    Who's deceiving....what your attesting to isn't some unknown fact....as a matter of a fact, its now quite widely known....


    So, since you won't look at opposing viewpoints to yours....


    Did jury instructions change after SYG was enacted?

    And if so, how in your estimation?
  18. MichiGator2002
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    There's no "viewpoint" to consider, I don't consider alternate answers to 2+2 other than 4, either. Self-defense is and has always been a defense to manslaughter, SYG has nothing to do with that, so that's a false premise in your argument. That there is no duty to retreat is the majority rule in this country by wide margin, so the case could have been put on the Wheel of Jurisdictions and the jury would have still gotten that instruction, so that's a false premise in your argument. The only thing that makes Florida at all different from the field is the actual SYG defense, the trial immunity defense, which was not a factor in the case. You are basically trying to conflate the thing that is actually called SYG in legal practice with the things that aren't known by that name because they have such widespread application, and doing it as a pretext to *drumroll* keep whining about SYG. Maybe because it's an easy phrase/acronym for people to feel conversant in without actually knowing what the hell they are talking about, that would certainly make sense for the press like Anderson Cooper, etc.
  19. gator996
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    Well the fact is that jury instructions did change after SYG was passed

    its also fact that 2 jurors have publically stated that SYG impaired their ability to find Zimmerman guilty.


    So how is it that it didn't figure into the Zimmerman trial again? :ninja:
  20. rivergator
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    the biggest difference with this case is that the shooter was charged right away. if Zimmerman had been charged, the case would not have gotten nearly the attention.

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